Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
Hello List! This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC. Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC. We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before. Regards, Hagen.
Hello Everyone, Summary of the Mumble session: Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm Agenda: - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress. * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics + 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in. * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues. * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals. * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated. * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff. Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome. Regards, Ferenc On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Great to hear you guys having so much progress. By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-c... On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far:
* Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics + 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hi No I didn't know this project. Seems to be pretty much the final stage of what I was thinking about... Can you get us in touch? Having one of those machines would make it unnecessary to have access to a clean room... It would be awesome! Cheers -lev On Monday, March 22, 2021 10:31:44 AM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
Great to hear you guys having so much progress.
By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-> concept-minimal-fab/ On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello Everyone, Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed: - How to deposit the metalization without possessing a "real" sputter? Maybe a chemical process that leaves a solid metal layer? - How to make the chip terminals accessible without possessing a "real" bonder (the dumbest functional second-hand unit is min. approx. 4000USD on ebay)? Mind the parasitic capacitance here... Regards, Ferenc On 22/03/2021 16:37, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hi No I didn't know this project. Seems to be pretty much the final stage of what I was thinking about... Can you get us in touch? Having one of those machines would make it unnecessary to have access to a clean room... It would be awesome!
Cheers -lev
On Monday, March 22, 2021 10:31:44 AM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
Great to hear you guys having so much progress.
By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-> concept-minimal-fab/ On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
No, I don't know much about them, but what I wanted to suggest is to get in touch with them, and try to get a reference to their clients who operates those mini, and micro fabs. Going through this industry body https://hollandsemiconductors.nl/ or directly contacting those fellow https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthijs-van-kooten-b59092118/?originalSubdomain... https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcelgrooten/?originalSubdomain=nl A tricky thing I believe will be the fact that you may be their potential future competitors. Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:37 PM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Hi No I didn't know this project. Seems to be pretty much the final stage of what I was thinking about... Can you get us in touch? Having one of those machines would make it unnecessary to have access to a clean room... It would be awesome!
Cheers -lev
On Monday, March 22, 2021 10:31:44 AM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
Great to hear you guys having so much progress.
By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-> concept-minimal-fab/ On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
I just found out that Von Kooten posted his contacts at the bottom of the article https://hollandsemiconductors.nl/2021/03/11/minimal-fab-minimal-fab-small-sc... Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 5:59 PM Pavel Nikulin <pavel@noa-labs.com> wrote:
No, I don't know much about them, but what I wanted to suggest is to get in touch with them, and try to get a reference to their clients who operates those mini, and micro fabs.
Going through this industry body https://hollandsemiconductors.nl/ or directly contacting those fellow https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthijs-van-kooten-b59092118/?originalSubdomain... https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcelgrooten/?originalSubdomain=nl
A tricky thing I believe will be the fact that you may be their potential future competitors.
Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:37 PM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Hi No I didn't know this project. Seems to be pretty much the final stage of what I was thinking about... Can you get us in touch? Having one of those machines would make it unnecessary to have access to a clean room... It would be awesome!
Cheers -lev
On Monday, March 22, 2021 10:31:44 AM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
Great to hear you guys having so much progress.
By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-> concept-minimal-fab/ On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Regarding "[...] you may be their potential future competitors.": I think there is no cross-section between our and their scope at the moment: - For LS1U, LS130 and any future LS nodes, where fabrication using equipment they make is desired, they will be most likely our supplier than competitor. - For LS50U, we aim to make and sell "equipment" like them, the target audience is different: they aim for corporate customers with need for prototyping or small-volume production of complex designs for real-life applications, while LS50U is a large-MFS metal-gate PMOS-only "toy technology" without high assurance of reproducibility or versatility, aimed at raising attention of private persons and enabling them to get a taste of semiconductor technology before they move on to more complex designs (e.g. on LS1U) or more in-depth contribution to the project. Regards, Ferenc On 24/03/2021 12:59, Pavel Nikulin wrote:
No, I don't know much about them, but what I wanted to suggest is to get in touch with them, and try to get a reference to their clients who operates those mini, and micro fabs.
Going through this industry body https://hollandsemiconductors.nl/ or directly contacting those fellow https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthijs-van-kooten-b59092118/?originalSubdomain... https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcelgrooten/?originalSubdomain=nl
A tricky thing I believe will be the fact that you may be their potential future competitors.
Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:37 PM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Hi No I didn't know this project. Seems to be pretty much the final stage of what I was thinking about... Can you get us in touch? Having one of those machines would make it unnecessary to have access to a clean room... It would be awesome!
Cheers -lev
On Monday, March 22, 2021 10:31:44 AM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
Great to hear you guys having so much progress.
By any chance, have anybody heard of Domicro BV? A Netherland based microfab shop https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/small-series-of-chips-profitable-by-flexible-> concept-minimal-fab/ On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello List! Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff." Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company. A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses. In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe. So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-) Regarding the naming rules I propose "SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name for our cooperative enterprise. Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1]. Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community. Live long and prosper, Hagen. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative
Hey List! AFAIK, ASCENT+ is already a cooperative, so if we could get out foot into that club, we would already have achieved that goal. In addition, we'd get access to clean rooms and services across Europe. Cheers -lev On Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:24:38 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff."
Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company.
A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses.
In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe.
So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-)
Regarding the naming rules I propose
"SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name
for our cooperative enterprise.
Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1].
Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community.
Live long and prosper, Hagen.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello all! I think ASCENT+ is not a Registered Legal Entity of its own, but just a project (the project members are legal entities). One problem with SCE might be that there is a start capital of at least 30000€ needed. Would it be enough to set up a registered society or coop in some country? E.g. in Germany registered society (eingetragene Verein, e.V.) or registered coop (eingetragene Genossenschaft, e.G.) does not need any start capital. They are legal entities which means that they can own things and do businesses. The big decisions are made by members and basically all the members have one vote. Best regards, Jani Am 25. März 2021 18:53:10 MEZ schrieb "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com>:
Hey List! AFAIK, ASCENT+ is already a cooperative, so if we could get out foot into that club, we would already have achieved that goal. In addition, we'd get access to clean rooms and services across Europe.
Cheers -lev
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:24:38 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff."
Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company.
A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses.
In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe.
So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-)
Regarding the naming rules I propose
"SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name
for our cooperative enterprise.
Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1].
Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community.
Live long and prosper, Hagen.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com
https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello Everyone, I see two problems with that approach: first, they will be most likely unwilling to take responsibility for our grey-zone chemical toy, that's the purpose the idea of forming an entity came up for. Second, in my opinion, if we want to do serious things like presenting a product or service to the market in exchange of financial compensation (either for-profit or non-profit), at some point it will become unavoidable that we form something that is, on an administrative, business and legal level, more than a private citizen acting along direct interpersonal contacts in name of some group of other private citizens or an externally more-or-less obscure open-source project. Regards, Ferenc On 25/03/2021 18:53, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hey List! AFAIK, ASCENT+ is already a cooperative, so if we could get out foot into that club, we would already have achieved that goal. In addition, we'd get access to clean rooms and services across Europe.
Cheers -lev
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:24:38 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff."
Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company.
A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses.
In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe.
So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-)
Regarding the naming rules I propose
"SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name
for our cooperative enterprise.
Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1].
Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community.
Live long and prosper, Hagen.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
I will totally support you on this. While you all are EU, or EEC citizens, I believe a foreigner will still need a legal entity just to do anything even in the liberal Europe. I'm stuck in the very same situation now while being stuck abroad for the last year due to covid, and quarantines. Countries didn't spend the last century making it hard to do business things without having a business entity for nothing: getting things through the customs, renting an office, doing even smallest transactions for services... I'm running into that every day. Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 4:38 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
I see two problems with that approach: first, they will be most likely unwilling to take responsibility for our grey-zone chemical toy, that's the purpose the idea of forming an entity came up for. Second, in my opinion, if we want to do serious things like presenting a product or service to the market in exchange of financial compensation (either for-profit or non-profit), at some point it will become unavoidable that we form something that is, on an administrative, business and legal level, more than a private citizen acting along direct interpersonal contacts in name of some group of other private citizens or an externally more-or-less obscure open-source project.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 25/03/2021 18:53, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hey List! AFAIK, ASCENT+ is already a cooperative, so if we could get out foot into that club, we would already have achieved that goal. In addition, we'd get access to clean rooms and services across Europe.
Cheers -lev
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:24:38 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff."
Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company.
A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses.
In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe.
So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-)
Regarding the naming rules I propose
"SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name
for our cooperative enterprise.
Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1].
Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community.
Live long and prosper, Hagen.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Agreed. Nicolas Cordero from ASCENT+ just came back to me. The other laboratories haven't gotten back to him about my proposal to adapt LibreSilicon to their equipment. Considering how they're organized, they're clearly NOT a business entity... Yeah. Maybe we need to found something like a company in order to do trading. I know someone here with an import export license, and will check how much it costs to get one as well. I guess it will go towards me incorporating a company here in Portugal, so that I can send around chemicals and equipment, as we've discussed. Cheers -lev On Thursday, March 25, 2021 10:51:11 PM WET Pavel Nikulin wrote:
I will totally support you on this.
While you all are EU, or EEC citizens, I believe a foreigner will still need a legal entity just to do anything even in the liberal Europe.
I'm stuck in the very same situation now while being stuck abroad for the last year due to covid, and quarantines. Countries didn't spend the last century making it hard to do business things without having a business entity for nothing: getting things through the customs, renting an office, doing even smallest transactions for services... I'm running into that every day.
Pavel Nikulin Software Engineer +7 702 851 0788 pavel@noa-labs.com
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 4:38 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
I see two problems with that approach: first, they will be most likely unwilling to take responsibility for our grey-zone chemical toy, that's the purpose the idea of forming an entity came up for. Second, in my opinion, if we want to do serious things like presenting a product or service to the market in exchange of financial compensation (either for-profit or non-profit), at some point it will become unavoidable that we form something that is, on an administrative, business and legal level, more than a private citizen acting along direct interpersonal contacts in name of some group of other private citizens or an externally more-or-less obscure open-source project.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 25/03/2021 18:53, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hey List! AFAIK, ASCENT+ is already a cooperative, so if we could get out foot into that club, we would already have achieved that goal. In addition, we'd get access to clean rooms and services across Europe.
Cheers -lev
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:24:38 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
Last Sunday we talked also about "Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff."
Well, I vote for using a SCE [0] to fulfill this legal task instead of a company.
A company is mostly owned be some individuals which rules the whole process in a "capitalistic" way. And I do not thinks this form will reflect our mission to bring the advantage of an open-and-free technology to the masses.
In my opinion a cooperative fits better into our community-based environment. We need at least five entities (persons or institutions) from two different European Countries - a goal I guess we can reach while our active members are all located in Europe.
So, the SCE can attract many members and give us a legal home for that. Okay, on backside of the SCE, a higher effort is driving/leading this cooperative because the SCE lives with the engagement of all of its members. I understand this as an enrichment. :-)
Regarding the naming rules I propose
"SCE LibreSilicon Alliance" as a suitable name
for our cooperative enterprise.
Some arguments for cooperatives also Wikipedia has [1].
Please feel free - even if your not from Europe - to give any feedback which Advantages and Disadvantages do you see in setting up and driving a SCE. Let's argue and find the best legal form to build a great LibreSilicon community.
Live long and prosper, Hagen.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_cooperativa_Europaea [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
On Friday, March 26, 2021, David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
entity... Yeah. Maybe we need to found something like a company in order to do trading.
set up a Community Interest Company as a holding company and if absolutely necessary create subsidiaries. a CIC may own a PLC but not the other way round. l.
Hi,
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far: ... Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300€ price target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100€ for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement. Greetings, Martin On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far:
* Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics + 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello Martin, hello list, Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally, our plan is two-fold: LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS, provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it is offered primarily as a service. Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS, metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design prototyping at all. Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between them is intended. @David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service? Regards, Ferenc On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
Hi,
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far: ... Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300€ price target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100€ for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
Greetings, Martin
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com <mailto:eegerferenc@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far:
* Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics + 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote: > Hello List! > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC. > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com <http://murmur.libresilicon.com> at > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before. > > Regards, > Hagen. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com <mailto:Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com <mailto:Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello Ferenc, thank you for the quick reply. LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable performance and SPICE models are less important that having a hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service. Greetings, Martin On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Martin, hello list,
Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally, our plan is two-fold:
LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS, provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it is offered primarily as a service.
Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS, metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design prototyping at all.
Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between them is intended.
@David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
Regards,
Ferenc On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
Hi,
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far: ... Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300€ price target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100€ for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
Greetings, Martin
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far:
* Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics + 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing listLibresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.comhttps://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hi So, considering that at the end of this month I'll have a new, even bigger apartment than currently with a garage and a fire place included (for 150 bucks less than I pay currently per month!!!), I'll have enough space to start working on our mini clean room glove box design, for manufacturing chips. I agree, I've checked online. I did find some inexpensive electric desktop furnaces, but they're all more expensive than 300 Euros. However, assuming that I get one of those microLED displays for building a maskless lithography system for those benches, it should become possible for me to provide such a service at home. Considering that such a glove box design has much less air to clean, it might actually be possible to achieve a cleanliness level inside there for achieving ever smaller feature sizes, assuming we can come up with a stepping capable exposure unit, or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and a suitable aperture. Cheers -lev On Friday, April 2, 2021 6:51:26 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
Hello Ferenc,
thank you for the quick reply.
LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable performance and SPICE models are less important that having a hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service.
Greetings, Martin
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Martin, hello list,
Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally, our plan is two-fold:
LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS, provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it is offered primarily as a service.
Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS, metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design prototyping at all.
Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between them is intended.
@David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
Regards,
Ferenc On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
Hi,
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: ...
Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed: Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300€ price target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100€ for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
Greetings, Martin
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing listLibresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.comhttps://list.libresilico n.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Hello Everyone, "or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and a suitable aperture." In my opinion, the pixel density of 2,5um/px of current JBD models is satisfactory for down to 5um MFS without reduction. The limiting problem is the focus and overlay accuracy here. To overcome that, we will need e.g. a machined steel block holding both the wafer and the projection optics instead of a 3D-printed frame. Or, we can use a stock stereomicroscope plus an X-Y-theta positioner with one ocular modified to accommodate the imager while the other is used for manual alignment and focus. On 02/04/2021 20:01, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hi So, considering that at the end of this month I'll have a new, even bigger apartment than currently with a garage and a fire place included (for 150 bucks less than I pay currently per month!!!), I'll have enough space to start working on our mini clean room glove box design, for manufacturing chips. I agree, I've checked online. I did find some inexpensive electric desktop furnaces, but they're all more expensive than 300 Euros. However, assuming that I get one of those microLED displays for building a maskless lithography system for those benches, it should become possible for me to provide such a service at home. Considering that such a glove box design has much less air to clean, it might actually be possible to achieve a cleanliness level inside there for achieving ever smaller feature sizes, assuming we can come up with a stepping capable exposure unit, or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and a suitable aperture.
Cheers -lev
On Friday, April 2, 2021 6:51:26 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
Hello Ferenc,
thank you for the quick reply.
LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable performance and SPICE models are less important that having a hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service.
Greetings, Martin
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Martin, hello list,
Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally, our plan is two-fold:
LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS, provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it is offered primarily as a service.
Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS, metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design prototyping at all.
Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between them is intended.
@David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
Regards,
Ferenc On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
Hi,
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for a basic process. Details discussed so far: ...
Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed: Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300€ price target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100€ for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
Greetings, Martin
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc Éger <eegerferenc@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Summary of the Mumble session:
Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
Agenda:
- LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
a basic process. Details discussed so far: * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a supplier is in progress.
* Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
* Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan). Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to contamination issues.
* Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent suppliers don't deal with individuals.
* Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B shall be formulated.
* Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
stuff.
Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation in the Mumble session are welcome.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
Hello List!
This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
Regards, Hagen. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
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participants (7)
-
David Lanzendörfer -
Ferenc Éger -
Hagen SANKOWSKI -
Jani Leinonen -
lkcl -
Martin Geisse -
Pavel Nikulin