From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Fri Apr  2 14:39:28 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 14:39:28 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <0804d473-bcf9-f369-5061-e00537dbb7ac@gmail.com>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <0804d473-bcf9-f369-5061-e00537dbb7ac@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZRB1CQM4ZFGP4vmqqRo6nJCq4VQ7E10nm9Kaa+wqEu3kg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
...
> Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is
> the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
> the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:

Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or
would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking
this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300? price target for
such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of
users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100? for a single prototype
is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.

Greetings,
Martin


On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> Summary of the Mumble session:
>
> Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
>
> Agenda:
>
> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
>
>     * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
> alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but
> polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a
> supplier is in progress.
>
>     * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
> 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
>
>     * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
> with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan).
> Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to
> contamination issues.
>
>     * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
> bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent
> suppliers don't deal with individuals.
>
>     * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
> expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding
> tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B
> shall be formulated.
>
>     * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
> stuff.
>
> Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are
> expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation
> in the Mumble session are welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ferenc
>
> On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
> > Hello List!
> >
> > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
> >
> >       2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
> >
> > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
> > Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
> >
> > We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Hagen.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210402/b7da0c4f/attachment.html>

From pavel at noa-labs.com  Fri Apr  2 15:56:05 2021
From: pavel at noa-labs.com (Pavel Nikulin)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:56:05 +0600
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Should I join the mumble session this weekend?
Message-ID: <CAG-pW8EjPRuKL0aeq7jC3wSL32YuNSN76mnT5pA_YWaordFtig@mail.gmail.com>

Hello list,

I finally got a first human response from JBD about the matrix. I
informed David, and am awaiting his reply.

I'd like to speak about about approaching them, and a bit on your funding.

I believe you already scoured through all, and everything with regard
to funding opportunities, but I believe the big news of the last few
months open a few more avenues for you.

I believe having to chase funds again will be a big distraction for
you, as expected, but the cost benefit on that, and any chance on
commercialization fade if not pursued withing months.

From eegerferenc at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 17:35:26 2021
From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 17:35:26 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Should I join the mumble session this
 weekend?
In-Reply-To: <CAG-pW8EjPRuKL0aeq7jC3wSL32YuNSN76mnT5pA_YWaordFtig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG-pW8EjPRuKL0aeq7jC3wSL32YuNSN76mnT5pA_YWaordFtig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7aabf81-269b-0e79-4b2f-b052faccd513@gmail.com>

Hello Pavel,

You're welcome, I see no reason for you not joining on this weekend. All 
needed info for setting up Mumble is in the weekly announcement.

Regards,

Ferenc

On 02/04/2021 15:56, Pavel Nikulin wrote:
> Hello list,
>
> I finally got a first human response from JBD about the matrix. I
> informed David, and am awaiting his reply.
>
> I'd like to speak about about approaching them, and a bit on your funding.
>
> I believe you already scoured through all, and everything with regard
> to funding opportunities, but I believe the big news of the last few
> months open a few more avenues for you.
>
> I believe having to chase funds again will be a big distraction for
> you, as expected, but the cost benefit on that, and any chance on
> commercialization fade if not pursued withing months.
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers

From eegerferenc at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 17:52:59 2021
From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 17:52:59 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZRB1CQM4ZFGP4vmqqRo6nJCq4VQ7E10nm9Kaa+wqEu3kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <0804d473-bcf9-f369-5061-e00537dbb7ac@gmail.com>
 <CACHJcZRB1CQM4ZFGP4vmqqRo6nJCq4VQ7E10nm9Kaa+wqEu3kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c74a5eb-9afe-70c6-4681-2c45e7877fef@gmail.com>

Hello Martin, hello list,

Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. 
Originally, our plan is two-fold:

LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS, 
provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes 
with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for 
prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and 
quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it 
is offered primarily as a service.

Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS, 
metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single 
metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or 
"attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and 
functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for 
design prototyping at all.

Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between 
them is intended.

@David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the 
kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?

Regards,

Ferenc

On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> > JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> > into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> > a basic process. Details discussed so far:
> ...
> > Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is
> > the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
> > the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
>
> Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, 
> or would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm 
> asking this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300? price 
> target for such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a 
> larger number of users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100? 
> for a single prototype is much more appealing than dealing with HF in 
> my basement.
>
> Greetings,
> Martin
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com 
> <mailto:eegerferenc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hello Everyone,
>
>     Summary of the Mumble session:
>
>     Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
>
>     Agenda:
>
>     - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
>     JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available
>     bundled
>     into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything
>     needed for
>     a basic process. Details discussed so far:
>
>     ??? * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
>     alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but
>     polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and
>     quoting a
>     supplier is in progress.
>
>     ??? * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
>     3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be
>     slided in.
>
>     ??? * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace
>     heater
>     with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan).
>     Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided
>     due to
>     contamination issues.
>
>     ??? * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...):
>     Ordered in
>     bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical
>     reagent
>     suppliers don't deal with individuals.
>
>     ??? * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
>     expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related
>     crowdfunding
>     tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also,
>     plan B
>     shall be formulated.
>
>     ??? * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle
>     the
>     stuff.
>
>     Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are
>     expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or
>     participation
>     in the Mumble session are welcome.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Ferenc
>
>     On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
>     > Hello List!
>     >
>     > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on
>     Sunday
>     >
>     >? ? ? ?2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
>     >
>     > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server
>     murmur.libresilicon.com <http://murmur.libresilicon.com> at
>     > Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
>     >
>     > We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions
>     before.
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     > Hagen.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>     > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>     <mailto:Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com>
>     >
>     https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>     _______________________________________________
>     Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>     Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>     <mailto:Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com>
>     https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210402/b4b0e96c/attachment.html>

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Fri Apr  2 19:51:26 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:51:26 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <9c74a5eb-9afe-70c6-4681-2c45e7877fef@gmail.com>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <0804d473-bcf9-f369-5061-e00537dbb7ac@gmail.com>
 <CACHJcZRB1CQM4ZFGP4vmqqRo6nJCq4VQ7E10nm9Kaa+wqEu3kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9c74a5eb-9afe-70c6-4681-2c45e7877fef@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZSg=D8D5WRH=yL6+bp=EUz7sy8o0msK4ZAgXeuTC0n0ig@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ferenc,

thank you for the quick reply.

LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though
obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable
performance and SPICE models are less important that having a
hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service.

Greetings,
Martin



On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Martin, hello list,
>
> Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally,
> our plan is two-fold:
>
> LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS,
> provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes
> with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for
> prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and
> quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it is
> offered primarily as a service.
>
> Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS,
> metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single
> metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or
> "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and
> functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design
> prototyping at all.
>
> Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between
> them is intended.
>
> @David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the
> kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ferenc
> On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> > JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> > into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> > a basic process. Details discussed so far:
> ...
> > Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is
> > the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
> > the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
>
> Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or
> would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking
> this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300? price target for
> such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of
> users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100? for a single prototype
> is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
>
> Greetings,
> Martin
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> Summary of the Mumble session:
>>
>> Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
>> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
>> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
>> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
>>
>>     * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
>> alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but
>> polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a
>> supplier is in progress.
>>
>>     * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
>> 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided in.
>>
>>     * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
>> with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan).
>> Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to
>> contamination issues.
>>
>>     * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
>> bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent
>> suppliers don't deal with individuals.
>>
>>     * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
>> expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding
>> tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B
>> shall be formulated.
>>
>>     * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
>> stuff.
>>
>> Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are
>> expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation
>> in the Mumble session are welcome.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ferenc
>>
>> On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
>> > Hello List!
>> >
>> > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
>> >
>> >       2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
>> >
>> > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
>> > Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
>> >
>> > We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Hagen.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing listLibresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.comhttps://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210402/b51d9561/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Apr  2 20:01:42 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 19:01:42 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZSg=D8D5WRH=yL6+bp=EUz7sy8o0msK4ZAgXeuTC0n0ig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <9c74a5eb-9afe-70c6-4681-2c45e7877fef@gmail.com>
 <CACHJcZSg=D8D5WRH=yL6+bp=EUz7sy8o0msK4ZAgXeuTC0n0ig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4631369.lRROr62Keh@harvey>

Hi
So, considering that at the end of this month I'll have a new, even bigger
apartment than currently with a garage and a fire place included (for 150 
bucks less than I pay currently per month!!!), I'll have enough space to start
working on our mini clean room glove box design, for manufacturing chips.
I agree, I've checked online. I did find some inexpensive electric desktop
furnaces, but they're all more expensive than 300 Euros.
However, assuming that I get one of those microLED displays for building
a maskless lithography system for those benches, it should become possible
for me to provide such a service at home.
Considering that such a glove box design has much less air to clean, it might
actually be possible to achieve a cleanliness level inside there for achieving 
ever smaller feature sizes, assuming we can come up with a stepping capable
exposure unit, or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and
a suitable aperture.

Cheers
-lev

On Friday, April 2, 2021 6:51:26 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hello Ferenc,
> 
> thank you for the quick reply.
> 
> LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though
> obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable
> performance and SPICE models are less important that having a
> hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service.
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello Martin, hello list,
> > 
> > Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally,
> > our plan is two-fold:
> > 
> > LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS,
> > provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes
> > with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for
> > prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and
> > quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it
> > is
> > offered primarily as a service.
> > 
> > Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS,
> > metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single
> > metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or
> > "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and
> > functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design
> > prototyping at all.
> > 
> > Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between
> > them is intended.
> > 
> > @David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the
> > kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Ferenc
> > On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> > > JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> > > into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> > 
> > > a basic process. Details discussed so far:
> > ...
> > 
> > > Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is
> > > the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
> > 
> > > the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
> > Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or
> > would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking
> > this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300? price target for
> > such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of
> > users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100? for a single prototype
> > is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
> > 
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com>
> > 
> > wrote:
> >> Hello Everyone,
> >> 
> >> Summary of the Mumble session:
> >> 
> >> Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
> >> 
> >> Agenda:
> >> 
> >> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
> >> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
> >> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
> >> 
> >> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
> >>     * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
> >> 
> >> alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but
> >> polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a
> >> supplier is in progress.
> >> 
> >>     * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
> >> 
> >> 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided
> >> in.
> >> 
> >>     * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
> >> 
> >> with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan).
> >> Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to
> >> contamination issues.
> >> 
> >>     * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
> >> 
> >> bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent
> >> suppliers don't deal with individuals.
> >> 
> >>     * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
> >> 
> >> expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding
> >> tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B
> >> shall be formulated.
> >> 
> >>     * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
> >> 
> >> stuff.
> >> 
> >> Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are
> >> expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation
> >> in the Mumble session are welcome.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Ferenc
> >> 
> >> On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
> >> > Hello List!
> >> > 
> >> > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
> >> > 
> >> >       2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
> >> > 
> >> > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
> >> > Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
> >> > 
> >> > We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Hagen.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> >> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> >> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> >> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> >> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing
> > listLibresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.comhttps://list.libresilico
> > n.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From luke.leighton at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 20:39:23 2021
From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:39:23 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <2983109.9zlIi9hSbk@harvey>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <9c4b6387-0217-4737-a883-53049c47234f@gmail.com>
 <CAG-pW8EM1Y_Jh=3UCGppeaumEwGMpL_nCDkh8ebDB3iW1eVq+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2983109.9zlIi9hSbk@harvey>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxT+o=RF+zh2ZYFKwhrcr-4KzypeqpLxhYC80VAwsy-_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Friday, March 26, 2021, David Lanzend?rfer <leviathan at libresilicon.com>
wrote:

>
> entity... Yeah. Maybe we need to found something like a company
> in order to do trading.


 set up a Community Interest Company as a holding company and if absolutely
necessary create subsidiaries.

a CIC may own a PLC but not the other way round.

l.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210402/18641361/attachment.html>

From eegerferenc at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 23:42:08 2021
From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:42:08 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
 2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC
In-Reply-To: <4631369.lRROr62Keh@harvey>
References: <f2b39aa1-72c1-91bd-4e2e-0a354d42430f@posteo.de>
 <9c74a5eb-9afe-70c6-4681-2c45e7877fef@gmail.com>
 <CACHJcZSg=D8D5WRH=yL6+bp=EUz7sy8o0msK4ZAgXeuTC0n0ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <4631369.lRROr62Keh@harvey>
Message-ID: <41ed9998-b228-b2e6-1c73-0b335534d437@gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

"or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and a suitable 
aperture." In my opinion, the pixel density of 2,5um/px of current JBD 
models is satisfactory for down to 5um MFS without reduction. The 
limiting problem is the focus and overlay accuracy here. To overcome 
that, we will need e.g. a machined steel block holding both the wafer 
and the projection optics instead of a 3D-printed frame. Or, we can use 
a stock stereomicroscope plus an X-Y-theta positioner with one ocular 
modified to accommodate the imager while the other is used for manual 
alignment and focus.

On 02/04/2021 20:01, David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> So, considering that at the end of this month I'll have a new, even bigger
> apartment than currently with a garage and a fire place included (for 150
> bucks less than I pay currently per month!!!), I'll have enough space to start
> working on our mini clean room glove box design, for manufacturing chips.
> I agree, I've checked online. I did find some inexpensive electric desktop
> furnaces, but they're all more expensive than 300 Euros.
> However, assuming that I get one of those microLED displays for building
> a maskless lithography system for those benches, it should become possible
> for me to provide such a service at home.
> Considering that such a glove box design has much less air to clean, it might
> actually be possible to achieve a cleanliness level inside there for achieving
> ever smaller feature sizes, assuming we can come up with a stepping capable
> exposure unit, or with a fixed one, which has a higher amount of pixels and
> a suitable aperture.
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Friday, April 2, 2021 6:51:26 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
>> Hello Ferenc,
>>
>> thank you for the quick reply.
>>
>> LS50U as a service is definitely something I would pay for, though
>> obviously less than for LS1U. Since it is a toy anyway, reliable
>> performance and SPICE models are less important that having a
>> hobbyist-friendly packaging (preferably DIP) included in the service.
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Martin
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 5:53 PM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Martin, hello list,
>>>
>>> Yes, we aim to offer Libresilicon as a manufacturing service. Originally,
>>> our plan is two-fold:
>>>
>>> LS1U is the "real" technology offered for manufacturing. It has 1um MFS,
>>> provides full poly-gate CMOS and bipolar primitive components, and comes
>>> with fully characterized SPICE models. This is the node intended for
>>> prototyping and making working devices. However, its fabrication and
>>> quality assurance requires an industrial-scale cleanroom facility, so it
>>> is
>>> offered primarily as a service.
>>>
>>> Parallel, LS50U is being worked on as a "toy": it is a 50-100um MFS,
>>> metal-gate PMOS-only technology with no poly-Si layer and only a single
>>> metal layer. Its primary goal is to serve as an educational tool or
>>> "attention-catcher" for the project. Design reproducibility and
>>> functionality is not implied or guaranteed, it is not intended for design
>>> prototyping at all.
>>>
>>> Please note that LS50U is not a subset of LS1U, no portability between
>>> them is intended.
>>>
>>> @David: What about providing LS50U also as a service (in addition to the
>>> kit)? As a forerunner of LS1U manufacturing service?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ferenc
>>> On 02/04/2021 14:39, Martin Geisse wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
>>>> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
>>>> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
>>>> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Just another two considerations: Our target audience with this kit is
>>>> the unit-radius citizen without significant financial resources (hence
>>>> the 300Eur target price), so the following needs to be addressed:
>>> Is providing an "NDA-less fab" service using these kits within scope, or
>>> would anyone on this list consider providing such a service? I'm asking
>>> this for two reasons. First, I'm skeptical about a 300? price target for
>>> such a kit, but a fab service would map that cost to a larger number of
>>> users. Second, for people like me, even paying 100? for a single prototype
>>> is much more appealing than dealing with HF in my basement.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM Ferenc ?ger <eegerferenc at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Summary of the Mumble session:
>>>>
>>>> Participants: eegerferenc, hsank, leviathan, tatzelbrumm
>>>>
>>>> Agenda:
>>>>
>>>> - LS50U/MLL: It is proposed to make a maskless exposure unit based on
>>>> JBD's uLED panel targeted at 50-100um MFS, and make it available bundled
>>>> into a "DIY Microchip Fabrication Kit" containing everything needed for
>>>>
>>>> a basic process. Details discussed so far:
>>>>      * Substrate: custom, 1-2cm rectangular "wafers" in order to make
>>>>
>>>> alignment easier and to fit into a small tube furnace. Similar, but
>>>> polycrystalline offerings exist for solar panels. Finding and quoting a
>>>> supplier is in progress.
>>>>
>>>>      * Exposure: JBD uLED panel + simple projection/reduction optics +
>>>>
>>>> 3D-printed framework for alignment, into which the chips can be slided
>>>> in.
>>>>
>>>>      * Furnace: cheap second-hand tube furnace, or a tube furnace heater
>>>>
>>>> with retrofitted quartz tube and control electronics (backup plan).
>>>> Metal-lined, graphite-lined or gas-heated types are to be avoided due to
>>>> contamination issues.
>>>>
>>>>      * Chemicals (HF, B, P, As, acidic cleaning agents, ...): Ordered in
>>>>
>>>> bulk and repackaged for distribution to overcome that chemical reagent
>>>> suppliers don't deal with individuals.
>>>>
>>>>      * Funding: Initially, crowdfund with unit price based on the
>>>>
>>>> expectation of at most 2 customers (semiconductor-related crowdfunding
>>>> tends to fail), then lower the UP if more customers come. Also, plan B
>>>> shall be formulated.
>>>>
>>>>      * Legal background: form a limited-liability company to handle the
>>>>
>>>> stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Discussion is expected to continue until next Sunday, when things are
>>>> expected to be written down. Comments on mailing list or participation
>>>> in the Mumble session are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ferenc
>>>>
>>>> On 20/03/2021 09:29, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
>>>>> Hello List!
>>>>>
>>>>> This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday
>>>>>
>>>>>        2021-03-21 @ 18:00 UTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
>>>>> Port 64738, the Channel is IC.
>>>>>
>>>>> We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Hagen.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>>>>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>>>>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>>>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>>>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libresilicon-developers mailing
>>> listLibresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.comhttps://list.libresilico
>>> n.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers

From pavel at noa-labs.com  Sun Apr  4 21:57:00 2021
From: pavel at noa-labs.com (Pavel Nikulin)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 01:57:00 +0600
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Should I join the mumble session this
 weekend?
In-Reply-To: <f7aabf81-269b-0e79-4b2f-b052faccd513@gmail.com>
References: <CAG-pW8EjPRuKL0aeq7jC3wSL32YuNSN76mnT5pA_YWaordFtig@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7aabf81-269b-0e79-4b2f-b052faccd513@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG-pW8EpLsx4V15-WJkjvB5PHm7-FjFJUoz4L5f9BBo5ePqmMw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ferenc,

We spoke today a bit about the uLED matrix option. The price of the
matter is $4000-$5000 for a prototype from their first tape out, which
does not compare favourably with an option of a second hand DLP
projector with mercury lamp.

I delivered a brief about the uLED thing in question. Key points:

1. JBD uses a bonding process to glue together a GaN layer from
sapphire carrier wafer, on top of silicon wafer with BEOL, and FEOL.
In other words, only the LEDs themselves are GaN.
2. That is very different from uLEDs with where GaN is grown on Si, or
where BEOL, and FEOL are patterned on the same sapphire substrate.
That results in vastly superior LED quality, and blowing nearest
competitors by millions of nits. Serious wattage from this thing is
possible.
3. The guy in question, Li Qiming, may well be the only man in the
world with a machine which can glue III-V to Si in serious commercial
volumes today. This is also the biggest showstopper.

Hagen gave a good analogy with litho equipment on the market to cars:
if second hand litho machines which used to be on the market were
cars, then the cheapest one would've been a second hand Ferrari, while
we are trying to build a bicycle.

I then said that even second hand bicycles would be freaking
expensive. Second hand bicycles in question would be other single shot
exposure machines.

While I keep optimism about uLED matrix, I agree that a DLP projector
with a UV lamp would probably be the best for this "bicycle" stage.

Ferenc, what I wanted to ask you as a man with the best optics knowledge here:

1. Do you think a uLED matrix with micro-reflectors the like one JBD
has be suitable for a proximity lithography?
2. Do you think it is possible for mortals to make this uLED matrix to
work in a scanning mode (like in a scanner vs a stepper) if it can be
driven fast enough?

Later we spoke about new funding options.

A new humongous fund called NGEU is now being created
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_EU which will bring $5B
additional funding to Horizon Europe over 2 years. This will also be
accompanied by a yet to materialise EU semiconductor fund, which will
be many times bigger.

In light of this, I noted that with so much money flying around, it
may well be harder to secure funding for a "bicycle" project than a
"Ferrari" project, meaning that funding for something more substantial
may be easier to get under current circumstances, despite it not being
the current aim of the project.

I myself would've exploited every possible opportunity out of the fact
that EU politicians are now peeing molten lead over chip shortages.

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sun Apr  4 22:42:42 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 21:42:42 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
Message-ID: <3947438.lAOvbN6Cc6@harvey>

Hi
So I'm right now tinkering together the GloveBox in FreeCAD.
Attached is a little preview.
Material wise we're much cheaper than the alternatives found on global 
supply[1], since I'm using standard aluminum profiles, acrylic glas and other 
off the shelf materials like perforated aluminum sheets[2], and for the air 
filtration I will use an inexpensive pump with HEPA filter from eBay[3].

Cheers
-lev

[1] https://www.globallabsupply.com/Two-Port-Simple-Closed-Loop-Glovebox-Acrlic-p/2400-2-a.htm
[2] https://hardware-warehouse.co.uk/Round-Perforated-Anodised-Aluminium-Sheet-1mm-1m-500mm-1mm
[3] https://www.ebay.com/p/19020368277?iid=373004598128
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: screeny.png
Type: image/png
Size: 70710 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210404/0d5083c0/attachment.png>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Mon Apr  5 13:07:10 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 12:07:10 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <3947438.lAOvbN6Cc6@harvey>
References: <3947438.lAOvbN6Cc6@harvey>
Message-ID: <1734142.TXFL9qJUc6@harvey>

Hi
So I'm a bit further in the planning phase, and it's now a fact that you can 
build a pretty good inexpensive closed loop system with a very low budget.

For blowing the air up from the bottom and in order to suck it in at the top, 
I'll order a box of those cheap CPU chasis fans here:
https://www.cclonline.com/product/277876/N51QT/Chassis-Case-Fans/Maplin-80mm-Black-Chassis-Fan-with-3Pin-4Pin-Male-Female-Connector/CLR1965/
The air duct can be done with... well... an air duct...
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Aluminium-Flexible-Hose-Alloy-Air-Duct-Tube-Flexi-Pipe/254900078406
The perforated aluminum sheets are cheap as hell as well...
https://hardware-warehouse.co.uk/Round-Perforated-Anodised-Aluminium-Sheet-1mm-1m-500mm-1mm
So are the HEPA filters:
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/AREBOS-Hepa-Filter-Staubsauger-Geeignet-fur-Industriestaubsauger-1800W/184489133876

The only difficult part, which isn't cheap and easy available for sourcing is 
the globes for the glove box, so I'll probably have to find a way in order to 
make that myself somehow...

Cheers
-lev

On Sunday, April 4, 2021 9:42:42 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> So I'm right now tinkering together the GloveBox in FreeCAD.
> Attached is a little preview.
> Material wise we're much cheaper than the alternatives found on global
> supply[1], since I'm using standard aluminum profiles, acrylic glas and
> other off the shelf materials like perforated aluminum sheets[2], and for
> the air filtration I will use an inexpensive pump with HEPA filter from
> eBay[3].
> 
> Cheers
> -lev
> 
> [1]
> https://www.globallabsupply.com/Two-Port-Simple-Closed-Loop-Glovebox-Acrlic
> -p/2400-2-a.htm [2]
> https://hardware-warehouse.co.uk/Round-Perforated-Anodised-Aluminium-Sheet-> 1mm-1m-500mm-1mm [3] https://www.ebay.com/p/19020368277?iid=373004598128




From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Mon Apr  5 13:15:59 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 12:15:59 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <1734142.TXFL9qJUc6@harvey>
References: <3947438.lAOvbN6Cc6@harvey> <1734142.TXFL9qJUc6@harvey>
Message-ID: <2453155.kRDWQI2yTV@harvey>

Another update: Big gloves exist on eBay.
So easy peacy lemon squeezy.
As soon as I've moved into the new apartment with the garage, I should have 
this glove box done in no time.
Right now checking with Leon and Pavel whether there's an alternative to the 
UV LED matrix which isn't frigging expensive.
I'm not willing nor am I able to pay 4150 USD for a chip in a prototype, 
especially because of the fact that I know that the first few attempts of 
making a PCB might go up in flames.

Cheers
-lev

On Monday, April 5, 2021 12:07:10 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> So I'm a bit further in the planning phase, and it's now a fact that you can
> build a pretty good inexpensive closed loop system with a very low budget.
> 
> For blowing the air up from the bottom and in order to suck it in at the
> top, I'll order a box of those cheap CPU chasis fans here:
> https://www.cclonline.com/product/277876/N51QT/Chassis-Case-Fans/Maplin-80mm
> -Black-Chassis-Fan-with-3Pin-4Pin-Male-Female-Connector/CLR1965/ The air
> duct can be done with... well... an air duct...
> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Aluminium-Flexible-Hose-Alloy-Air-Duct-Tube-Flexi-Pi
> pe/254900078406 The perforated aluminum sheets are cheap as hell as well...
> https://hardware-warehouse.co.uk/Round-Perforated-Anodised-Aluminium-Sheet-1
> mm-1m-500mm-1mm So are the HEPA filters:
> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/AREBOS-Hepa-Filter-Staubsauger-Geeignet-fur-Industri
> estaubsauger-1800W/184489133876
> 
> The only difficult part, which isn't cheap and easy available for sourcing
> is the globes for the glove box, so I'll probably have to find a way in
> order to make that myself somehow...
> 
> Cheers
> -lev
> 
> On Sunday, April 4, 2021 9:42:42 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> > Hi
> > So I'm right now tinkering together the GloveBox in FreeCAD.
> > Attached is a little preview.
> > Material wise we're much cheaper than the alternatives found on global
> > supply[1], since I'm using standard aluminum profiles, acrylic glas and
> > other off the shelf materials like perforated aluminum sheets[2], and for
> > the air filtration I will use an inexpensive pump with HEPA filter from
> > eBay[3].
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > [1]
> > https://www.globallabsupply.com/Two-Port-Simple-Closed-Loop-Glovebox-Acrli
> > c
> > -p/2400-2-a.htm [2]
> > https://hardware-warehouse.co.uk/Round-Perforated-Anodised-Aluminium-Sheet
> > -> 1mm-1m-500mm-1mm [3]
> > https://www.ebay.com/p/19020368277?iid=373004598128




From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Mon Apr  5 19:15:25 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 18:15:25 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Maskless Lithography
Message-ID: <9352751.nj06mzZhW0@harvey>

Hi
So Mouser has DMD chips from Texas Instruments, with multiple of those chips
you already can achieve around 20 micron feature sizes and lower on
a 1cm x 1cm die... For 50 Euros a chip... NOT 4000 Euros...
I think it's a no brainer to run with DMD chips for now...

Cheers
-lev


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Wed Apr  7 14:43:33 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:43:33 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper, DMD chip
Message-ID: <2277515.c54Z9RL92g@harvey>

Hi
What do you think about using the DLP2000 for the first version of
my exposure unit?
It could already make structures down to 50um with a die size of 1cm x 1cm

Cheers
-lev
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: dlp2000.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 537688 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210407/82c99c13/attachment.pdf>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr  8 13:32:24 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 12:32:24 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV
Message-ID: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey>

Hi
So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce the 
life span of the DMD chip.
However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
and it seems to be working ok.
Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser, although
the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more expensive
UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...

Cheers
-lev


From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  8 13:58:08 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:58:08 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV
In-Reply-To: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey>
References: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZQDeNvsd0YYUstzbxux7i3cMaPWyca3ewi2HwpVQz3xAw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

is there a need to use UV light, e.g. does the photoresist need UV to
react? Blue or white light would not only be more friendly to the DMD chip
but also require less precautions, be directly visible with a microscope
for alignment and checking (or at 50u, maybe even a good magnifying glass),
etc.

At least at 50u the wavelength will be much smaller so sharpness or
diffraction isn't a concern.

If you really need UV, I'd suggest using a socket so you can at least
replace the DMD chip when it breaks. 30-50? is okay-ish to try if it
survives "long enough" on average.

Greetings,
Martin


On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:32 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce the
> life span of the DMD chip.
> However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
> and it seems to be working ok.
> Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser, although
> the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
> I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more expensive
> UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210408/1fd6e0fa/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr  8 14:04:26 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:04:26 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZQDeNvsd0YYUstzbxux7i3cMaPWyca3ewi2HwpVQz3xAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQDeNvsd0YYUstzbxux7i3cMaPWyca3ewi2HwpVQz3xAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3504042.DotYG6TCvu@harvey>

Hi Martin
There's a patent for a very easy to use resist which can be used with
visible light, but I've got to do some digging on what suppliers produce it:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7354692B2/en
Visible light resist would clearly be preferable, because then the DMD
would need to be operated outside of the intended specs.

Cheers
-lev

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 12:58:08 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> is there a need to use UV light, e.g. does the photoresist need UV to
> react? Blue or white light would not only be more friendly to the DMD chip
> but also require less precautions, be directly visible with a microscope
> for alignment and checking (or at 50u, maybe even a good magnifying glass),
> etc.
> 
> At least at 50u the wavelength will be much smaller so sharpness or
> diffraction isn't a concern.
> 
> If you really need UV, I'd suggest using a socket so you can at least
> replace the DMD chip when it breaks. 30-50? is okay-ish to try if it
> survives "long enough" on average.
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:32 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce the
> > life span of the DMD chip.
> > However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
> > and it seems to be working ok.
> > Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser, although
> > the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
> > I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more expensive
> > UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  8 15:08:35 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 15:08:35 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV
In-Reply-To: <3504042.DotYG6TCvu@harvey>
References: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQDeNvsd0YYUstzbxux7i3cMaPWyca3ewi2HwpVQz3xAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3504042.DotYG6TCvu@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZQ8twD=inQ+bHPYeC+3SHiJMWtw4JS2n7-tjfrcHU7sCg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

I have to admit that using visible light was probably a stupid idea. There
seem to be some more photoresists that are somewhat sensitive to visible
blue/violet [1], but they seem hard to get.

So back to the idea of using a chip socket so the DMD can be replaced when
UV breaks it: This will allow to learn not only about how well the DMD
takes UV, but also about the failure modes. For example, blurring the image
a bit is probably not as bad, and even faulty pixels are covered by typical
design rules (taking MOSIS SCMOS as an example). OTOH if the electronics of
the DMD get faulty, it's probably game over. Those are things the datasheet
probably won't tell you, so trying it the only way to find out.

Another idea would be test patterns using visible light. If the DMD
degrades gradually, a test pattern would allow to find out if it is still
usable or not. By that, a degraded DMD is no longer a catastrophic event,
but rather is part of the expected lifetime of the DIY kit and allows to
factor the price of the DMD into the price of the service, mapped over the
number of dies produced with it. For example, if the DMD can shoot 100
images before it breaks, and costs 50?, it's 0,50? per image or 2? per die
if you need 4 photolitho'd layers.

(BTW, the datasheet only says that bright UV and simultaneous temperatures
> 70?C are harmful, so that might mean that nothing bad will happen if you
just don't stress the DMD too much)

[1] https://www.lithoprotect.com/en/worth-knowing/

Greetings,
Martin


On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 2:04 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi Martin
> There's a patent for a very easy to use resist which can be used with
> visible light, but I've got to do some digging on what suppliers produce
> it:
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US7354692B2/en
> Visible light resist would clearly be preferable, because then the DMD
> would need to be operated outside of the intended specs.
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Thursday, April 8, 2021 12:58:08 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > is there a need to use UV light, e.g. does the photoresist need UV to
> > react? Blue or white light would not only be more friendly to the DMD
> chip
> > but also require less precautions, be directly visible with a microscope
> > for alignment and checking (or at 50u, maybe even a good magnifying
> glass),
> > etc.
> >
> > At least at 50u the wavelength will be much smaller so sharpness or
> > diffraction isn't a concern.
> >
> > If you really need UV, I'd suggest using a socket so you can at least
> > replace the DMD chip when it breaks. 30-50? is okay-ish to try if it
> > survives "long enough" on average.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:32 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> >
> > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce
> the
> > > life span of the DMD chip.
> > > However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
> > > and it seems to be working ok.
> > > Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser,
> although
> > > the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
> > > I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more
> expensive
> > > UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210408/4edecc12/attachment.html>

From ludwig.jaffe at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 19:01:50 2021
From: ludwig.jaffe at gmail.com (ludwig jaffe)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 19:01:50 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV -> Go green
Message-ID: <CAP7JdrL6FEL_Ke9KDcyBx7oDCcO7ROPiOOD7ur55Fijq0C8u=g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

today I talked to a co-worker of mine Shakor who designs optical
stuff, and he explained to me, that using UV is a very bad idea,
as it destroys everything, also lenses!
"Our chips are the biggest". Go for bigger structures for the start,
so use green light for example. Here one could also experiment
with lens assemblies made for professional cameras like old
M42 lenses made by Leiz, and Zeiss Jena.

Also the DLP chip is not nice for our application as we do not need
a 3 color LED drive embedded in the chip as we have only one
wave length and so we dont do RGB and we dont need a sync between
LED and DLP.
So go for higher resolution "monochrome" just the mirrors, e.g. 2K

Very important is to get a uniform intensity, which requires a special lens
assembly as one needs to transform the gaussian-curve intensity diagram
of any LED into a square diagram as this square intensity is projected
to the mirror assembly and then on the chip.

I am sure, that we can get professional help with the optics stuff, as long
it is visible light.

Regards,

Ludwig


On 4/8/21, David Lanzend?rfer <leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> Hi
> So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce the
> life span of the DMD chip.
> However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
> and it seems to be working ok.
> Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser, although
> the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
> I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more expensive
> UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>

From hsank at posteo.de  Sat Apr 10 13:03:10 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 13:03:10 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
	2021-04-11 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <a1cedea8-917d-f07b-dbb3-af00de2f4f04@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2021-04-11 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our meeting minutes from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Apr 10 17:43:43 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 16:43:43 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
Message-ID: <3214531.vglGRFnh5k@harvey>

Hi
Attached you can find a screen capture of what I've got so far for the 3D 
design for the glove box.
On the right I'm going to make some cut out and will have a small double
door box, as an air lock.

Cheers
-lev
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: screen.png
Type: image/png
Size: 18855 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210410/635ffda5/attachment.png>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Apr 10 17:45:49 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 16:45:49 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Lifespan & UV
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZQ8twD=inQ+bHPYeC+3SHiJMWtw4JS2n7-tjfrcHU7sCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1861763.LdSb0khDVW@harvey> <3504042.DotYG6TCvu@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQ8twD=inQ+bHPYeC+3SHiJMWtw4JS2n7-tjfrcHU7sCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1710900.p0O4n5aIe6@harvey>

Hi Martin
Turns out that 400nm is still within the tolerance range of the DMD display,
and is a wave length short enough for commonly used resists to react with.
I guess I'll use a 400 nm UV LED (visible part of UV).

Cheers
-lev

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 2:08:35 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> I have to admit that using visible light was probably a stupid idea. There
> seem to be some more photoresists that are somewhat sensitive to visible
> blue/violet [1], but they seem hard to get.
> 
> So back to the idea of using a chip socket so the DMD can be replaced when
> UV breaks it: This will allow to learn not only about how well the DMD
> takes UV, but also about the failure modes. For example, blurring the image
> a bit is probably not as bad, and even faulty pixels are covered by typical
> design rules (taking MOSIS SCMOS as an example). OTOH if the electronics of
> the DMD get faulty, it's probably game over. Those are things the datasheet
> probably won't tell you, so trying it the only way to find out.
> 
> Another idea would be test patterns using visible light. If the DMD
> degrades gradually, a test pattern would allow to find out if it is still
> usable or not. By that, a degraded DMD is no longer a catastrophic event,
> but rather is part of the expected lifetime of the DIY kit and allows to
> factor the price of the DMD into the price of the service, mapped over the
> number of dies produced with it. For example, if the DMD can shoot 100
> images before it breaks, and costs 50?, it's 0,50? per image or 2? per die
> if you need 4 photolitho'd layers.
> 
> (BTW, the datasheet only says that bright UV and simultaneous temperatures
> 
> > 70?C are harmful, so that might mean that nothing bad will happen if you
> 
> just don't stress the DMD too much)
> 
> [1] https://www.lithoprotect.com/en/worth-knowing/
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 2:04 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin
> > There's a patent for a very easy to use resist which can be used with
> > visible light, but I've got to do some digging on what suppliers produce
> > it:
> > https://patents.google.com/patent/US7354692B2/en
> > Visible light resist would clearly be preferable, because then the DMD
> > would need to be operated outside of the intended specs.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Thursday, April 8, 2021 12:58:08 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > is there a need to use UV light, e.g. does the photoresist need UV to
> > > react? Blue or white light would not only be more friendly to the DMD
> > 
> > chip
> > 
> > > but also require less precautions, be directly visible with a microscope
> > > for alignment and checking (or at 50u, maybe even a good magnifying
> > 
> > glass),
> > 
> > > etc.
> > > 
> > > At least at 50u the wavelength will be much smaller so sharpness or
> > > diffraction isn't a concern.
> > > 
> > > If you really need UV, I'd suggest using a socket so you can at least
> > > replace the DMD chip when it breaks. 30-50? is okay-ish to try if it
> > > survives "long enough" on average.
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:32 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > 
> > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > > So in the data sheet of the DLP2000 they say that UV light will reduce
> > 
> > the
> > 
> > > > life span of the DMD chip.
> > > > However. Sam Zeloof is using a DMD display from an overhead projector
> > > > and it seems to be working ok.
> > > > Should I take the chance and take this 30 Euro chips from Mouser,
> > 
> > although
> > 
> > > > the data sheet says, UV wouldn't be advised?
> > > > I mean, I still can replace the chip afterwards through a more
> > 
> > expensive
> > 
> > > > UV chip, when the rest of the machine works...
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > -lev
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Apr 10 22:07:07 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 21:07:07 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper
Message-ID: <3689919.Cz6yQSid21@harvey>

Hi
So for detecting the aligner markers I'll probably use the MLX90640ESF-
BAA-000-SP[1]
for detecting the alignment marker by shining through the waver with an IR 
LED.
This resist[2] here can be exposed with a UV LED[3] up to 450nm wavelength,
which is well within the tolerance range of the DLP2000[4] (on page 8).
I'm right now working out the radial alignment and the loading mechanism,
which is actually much harder than originally envisioned, because I kind of
need a suction mechanism because I don't wanna scratch the surface or
expose the wafer to too much mechanical stress.

Cheers
-lev

[1] https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Melexis/MLX90640ESF-BAA-000-SP/?
qs=y6ZabgHbY%252Bz1Luyoz5kAtA==
[2] https://www.microresist.de/en/produkt/ma-p-1200g-series/
[3] https://protosupplies.com/product/led-3w-deep-blue-440-445nm-10-pack/
[4] https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dlp2000.pdf


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Apr 10 23:33:23 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 22:33:23 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
Message-ID: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>

Hi
I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't need to be 
transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the attached
screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made from folded
sheet metal as well.

What do you think?

Cheers
-lev
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: screeny.png
Type: image/png
Size: 6801 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210410/6c2b6378/attachment.png>

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Sun Apr 11 09:17:01 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:17:01 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZQmkf-mBH_RYkE_E4nM1yg9HTnhYJGqu7yh0zHr=S8Kxg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

some ideas / questions:

> I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything

Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing in
there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?

> airlock

If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with your
hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is the
most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not good
either...

A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the outer
door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
bottom of the box.

> tools

If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious. You'll
need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side might be
a solution for that.

OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the furnace is
going to do to the acrylic box...

> gloves

Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals *inside*,
right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that withstands
*all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch make
the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning not to
spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these things
just happen anyway.

Greetings,
Martin



On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't need
> to be
> transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the attached
> screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made from
> folded
> sheet metal as well.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Cheers
> -lev_______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210411/6ea13d5d/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sun Apr 11 12:24:36 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:24:36 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZQmkf-mBH_RYkE_E4nM1yg9HTnhYJGqu7yh0zHr=S8Kxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQmkf-mBH_RYkE_E4nM1yg9HTnhYJGqu7yh0zHr=S8Kxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>

Hi
Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server murmur.libresilicon.com 
and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it the 
easiest and cheapest way?

Cheers
-lev

On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> some ideas / questions:
> > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing in
> there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> 
> > airlock
> 
> If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with your
> hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is the
> most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not good
> either...
> 
> A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the outer
> door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
> bottom of the box.
> 
> > tools
> 
> If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious. You'll
> need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
> plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side might be
> a solution for that.
> 
> OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the furnace is
> going to do to the acrylic box...
> 
> > gloves
> 
> Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals *inside*,
> right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that withstands
> *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch make
> the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning not to
> spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these things
> just happen anyway.
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't need
> > to be
> > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the attached
> > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made from
> > folded
> > sheet metal as well.
> > 
> > What do you think?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev_______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Sun Apr 11 13:16:54 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:16:54 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQmkf-mBH_RYkE_E4nM1yg9HTnhYJGqu7yh0zHr=S8Kxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZT69qwttAOL-mY2Bu4=zo2tgrK6sx3o=jutg9qEVY144Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

I'm afraid I won't be home in time for that session. I'll think about it
some more, though. Do you have a rough list of the large things that have
to be inside, e.g. does the furnace have to be inside or is there a way to
keep it separate?

Greetings,
Martin


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server
> murmur.libresilicon.com
> and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it the
> easiest and cheapest way?
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > some ideas / questions:
> > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing in
> > there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> >
> > > airlock
> >
> > If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with your
> > hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is the
> > most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not good
> > either...
> >
> > A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the outer
> > door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
> > bottom of the box.
> >
> > > tools
> >
> > If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious. You'll
> > need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
> > plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side might
> be
> > a solution for that.
> >
> > OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the furnace is
> > going to do to the acrylic box...
> >
> > > gloves
> >
> > Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals *inside*,
> > right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that withstands
> > *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch make
> > the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning not
> to
> > spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these
> things
> > just happen anyway.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> >
> > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't
> need
> > > to be
> > > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the
> attached
> > > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made from
> > > folded
> > > sheet metal as well.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev_______________________________________________
> > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210411/f9ccea63/attachment.html>

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Mon Apr 12 11:49:52 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:49:52 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey>
 <CACHJcZQmkf-mBH_RYkE_E4nM1yg9HTnhYJGqu7yh0zHr=S8Kxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZSEi=__PYEDSQPPzif-PX1ZoBk555nRgRBEnRhsL=xyrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

so here's some more thoughts about the glove box:

- furnace

I found this mini furnace manufacturer: https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/

They are somewhat outside our price range, about $500, but otherwise they
match quite well, e.g. https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/quikmelt-10/

That furnace is electrically powered (you probably shouldn't use a propane
furnace indoors), it's tiny so less heat is wasted, and due to its size it
should be possible to attach it to the back side of the glove box. I still
think that having the furnace inside the box is a problem because the heat
cannot escape well, but having it outside and connecting it through another
opening in the box should be possible.

- insulation

You'll still probably have to thermically insulate the furnace from the
glove box (even if the back wall is made of sheet metal and not acrylic).
My first idea is to use calcium silicate boards, e.g.
https://www.promat.com/en/industry/technologies/calcium-silicates/high-temperature-insulation/

These boards are used to insulate masonry heaters from walls and can take
up to 1000?C -- the outside of the furnace is probably not as hot, so that
should be enough. My guess is to use high-temperature mortar to glue the
boards to the furnace (keeping the inside dust-free, it's a clean room
after all) and something more flexible, e.g. high-temperature silicone, to
glue the boards to the back side of the glove box. If both connections were
rigid then it would break too easily, especially with thermal expansion.

The alternative would be rock wool, but that stuff is nasty (at least if
it's similar to glass wool). Calcium silicate is similar to gypsum in
handling, just more expensive.

- spin coater

My first idea to make this cheap is an axle connected to a disk and mounted
in such a way that the axle can spin but not tilt. You could then attach a
handheld drill to the bottom of the axle to spin it.I still like the idea
except that the disk has to be inside the glove box and the axle has to
leave the box at the bottom, so keeping it dust-tight AND freely spinnable
but not tiltable is the main challenge with that. Someone who is wiser in
mechanics can probably do that easily.


Greetings,
Martin





On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server
> murmur.libresilicon.com
> and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it the
> easiest and cheapest way?
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > some ideas / questions:
> > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing in
> > there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> >
> > > airlock
> >
> > If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with your
> > hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is the
> > most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not good
> > either...
> >
> > A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the outer
> > door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
> > bottom of the box.
> >
> > > tools
> >
> > If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious. You'll
> > need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
> > plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side might
> be
> > a solution for that.
> >
> > OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the furnace is
> > going to do to the acrylic box...
> >
> > > gloves
> >
> > Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals *inside*,
> > right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that withstands
> > *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch make
> > the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning not
> to
> > spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these
> things
> > just happen anyway.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> >
> > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't
> need
> > > to be
> > > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the
> attached
> > > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made from
> > > folded
> > > sheet metal as well.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev_______________________________________________
> > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210412/8951f0d8/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Mon Apr 12 16:27:52 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:27:52 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZSEi=__PYEDSQPPzif-PX1ZoBk555nRgRBEnRhsL=xyrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey> <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
 <CACHJcZSEi=__PYEDSQPPzif-PX1ZoBk555nRgRBEnRhsL=xyrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5825074.EPaJEz6dYE@harvey>

Hi
There's a problem... It's for vertical loading and the carbon will contaminate
the circuit. I know those furnaces well, it's used in recycling Aluminum and
for casting. I wanna make a "Liberator" (3D printed gun) into metal
using one of those already for a while.
However, those furnaces are unsuitable for chip making I'm afraid.

Cheers
-lev

On Monday, April 12, 2021 10:49:52 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> so here's some more thoughts about the glove box:
> 
> - furnace
> 
> I found this mini furnace manufacturer: https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/
> 
> They are somewhat outside our price range, about $500, but otherwise they
> match quite well, e.g. https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/quikmelt-10/
> 
> That furnace is electrically powered (you probably shouldn't use a propane
> furnace indoors), it's tiny so less heat is wasted, and due to its size it
> should be possible to attach it to the back side of the glove box. I still
> think that having the furnace inside the box is a problem because the heat
> cannot escape well, but having it outside and connecting it through another
> opening in the box should be possible.
> 
> - insulation
> 
> You'll still probably have to thermically insulate the furnace from the
> glove box (even if the back wall is made of sheet metal and not acrylic).
> My first idea is to use calcium silicate boards, e.g.
> https://www.promat.com/en/industry/technologies/calcium-silicates/high-tempe
> rature-insulation/
> 
> These boards are used to insulate masonry heaters from walls and can take
> up to 1000?C -- the outside of the furnace is probably not as hot, so that
> should be enough. My guess is to use high-temperature mortar to glue the
> boards to the furnace (keeping the inside dust-free, it's a clean room
> after all) and something more flexible, e.g. high-temperature silicone, to
> glue the boards to the back side of the glove box. If both connections were
> rigid then it would break too easily, especially with thermal expansion.
> 
> The alternative would be rock wool, but that stuff is nasty (at least if
> it's similar to glass wool). Calcium silicate is similar to gypsum in
> handling, just more expensive.
> 
> - spin coater
> 
> My first idea to make this cheap is an axle connected to a disk and mounted
> in such a way that the axle can spin but not tilt. You could then attach a
> handheld drill to the bottom of the axle to spin it.I still like the idea
> except that the disk has to be inside the glove box and the axle has to
> leave the box at the bottom, so keeping it dust-tight AND freely spinnable
> but not tiltable is the main challenge with that. Someone who is wiser in
> mechanics can probably do that easily.
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server
> > murmur.libresilicon.com
> > and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it the
> > easiest and cheapest way?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > some ideas / questions:
> > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> > > 
> > > Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing in
> > > there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> > > 
> > > > airlock
> > > 
> > > If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with your
> > > hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is the
> > > most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not
> > > good
> > > either...
> > > 
> > > A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the
> > > outer
> > > door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
> > > bottom of the box.
> > > 
> > > > tools
> > > 
> > > If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious.
> > > You'll
> > > need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
> > > plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side might
> > 
> > be
> > 
> > > a solution for that.
> > > 
> > > OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the furnace is
> > > going to do to the acrylic box...
> > > 
> > > > gloves
> > > 
> > > Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals *inside*,
> > > right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that
> > > withstands
> > > *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch make
> > > the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning not
> > 
> > to
> > 
> > > spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these
> > 
> > things
> > 
> > > just happen anyway.
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > 
> > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't
> > 
> > need
> > 
> > > > to be
> > > > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > > > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the
> > 
> > attached
> > 
> > > > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made
> > > > from
> > > > folded
> > > > sheet metal as well.
> > > > 
> > > > What do you think?
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > -lev_______________________________________________
> > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Mon Apr 12 22:50:46 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:50:46 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <5825074.EPaJEz6dYE@harvey>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey> <13377106.01kcT4Pnnz@harvey>
 <CACHJcZSEi=__PYEDSQPPzif-PX1ZoBk555nRgRBEnRhsL=xyrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5825074.EPaJEz6dYE@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZTq1SDiAXJEHiZuUKyO_2yBFuUMfQAgMCQSxxeTYMdRJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

thanks for the hint about carbon, didn't know that. That the furnace is
top-loading is something I just overlooked. However, the same company has
front-loading furnaces and it seems that with the Quikmelt, only the
crucible is made out of graphite, the furnace itself doesn't seem to have
any. (To be more exact, the description of the Quikmelt says something
about organic binder and I'm not sure if that leaks any carbon; the
description of the Rapidfire doesn't say anything like that but the
material looks similar).

https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/rapidfire-pro-l/
https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/rapidfire-pro-lp/

The -LP variant has more sophisticated temperature control.

There is another thing that came to my mind about the furnace though: Do
they have to be airtight, or placed inside an airtight container, for the
doping steps? IIRC doping has to happen under nitrogen or nitrogen/hydrogen
atmosphere (or even vacuum) so it doesn't accidentally grow oxide on the
silicon.

Greetings,
Martin



On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 4:27 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> There's a problem... It's for vertical loading and the carbon will
> contaminate
> the circuit. I know those furnaces well, it's used in recycling Aluminum
> and
> for casting. I wanna make a "Liberator" (3D printed gun) into metal
> using one of those already for a while.
> However, those furnaces are unsuitable for chip making I'm afraid.
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Monday, April 12, 2021 10:49:52 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > so here's some more thoughts about the glove box:
> >
> > - furnace
> >
> > I found this mini furnace manufacturer: https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/
> >
> > They are somewhat outside our price range, about $500, but otherwise they
> > match quite well, e.g.
> https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/quikmelt-10/
> >
> > That furnace is electrically powered (you probably shouldn't use a
> propane
> > furnace indoors), it's tiny so less heat is wasted, and due to its size
> it
> > should be possible to attach it to the back side of the glove box. I
> still
> > think that having the furnace inside the box is a problem because the
> heat
> > cannot escape well, but having it outside and connecting it through
> another
> > opening in the box should be possible.
> >
> > - insulation
> >
> > You'll still probably have to thermically insulate the furnace from the
> > glove box (even if the back wall is made of sheet metal and not acrylic).
> > My first idea is to use calcium silicate boards, e.g.
> >
> https://www.promat.com/en/industry/technologies/calcium-silicates/high-tempe
> > rature-insulation/
> >
> > These boards are used to insulate masonry heaters from walls and can take
> > up to 1000?C -- the outside of the furnace is probably not as hot, so
> that
> > should be enough. My guess is to use high-temperature mortar to glue the
> > boards to the furnace (keeping the inside dust-free, it's a clean room
> > after all) and something more flexible, e.g. high-temperature silicone,
> to
> > glue the boards to the back side of the glove box. If both connections
> were
> > rigid then it would break too easily, especially with thermal expansion.
> >
> > The alternative would be rock wool, but that stuff is nasty (at least if
> > it's similar to glass wool). Calcium silicate is similar to gypsum in
> > handling, just more expensive.
> >
> > - spin coater
> >
> > My first idea to make this cheap is an axle connected to a disk and
> mounted
> > in such a way that the axle can spin but not tilt. You could then attach
> a
> > handheld drill to the bottom of the axle to spin it.I still like the idea
> > except that the disk has to be inside the glove box and the axle has to
> > leave the box at the bottom, so keeping it dust-tight AND freely
> spinnable
> > but not tiltable is the main challenge with that. Someone who is wiser in
> > mechanics can probably do that easily.
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> >
> > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server
> > > murmur.libresilicon.com
> > > and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it
> the
> > > easiest and cheapest way?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev
> > >
> > > On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > Hi David,
> > > >
> > > > some ideas / questions:
> > > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> > > >
> > > > Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing
> in
> > > > there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> > > >
> > > > > airlock
> > > >
> > > > If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with
> your
> > > > hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is
> the
> > > > most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not
> > > > good
> > > > either...
> > > >
> > > > A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the
> > > > outer
> > > > door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in the
> > > > bottom of the box.
> > > >
> > > > > tools
> > > >
> > > > If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious.
> > > > You'll
> > > > need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage, hot
> > > > plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side
> might
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > > > a solution for that.
> > > >
> > > > OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the
> furnace is
> > > > going to do to the acrylic box...
> > > >
> > > > > gloves
> > > >
> > > > Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals
> *inside*,
> > > > right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that
> > > > withstands
> > > > *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch
> make
> > > > the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning
> not
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these
> > >
> > > things
> > >
> > > > just happen anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Greetings,
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > >
> > > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which doesn't
> > >
> > > need
> > >
> > > > > to be
> > > > > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > > > > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the
> > >
> > > attached
> > >
> > > > > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made
> > > > > from
> > > > > folded
> > > > > sheet metal as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > -lev_______________________________________________
> > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > > >
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210412/f28c218e/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr 15 18:05:14 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:05:14 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] GloveBox
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZTq1SDiAXJEHiZuUKyO_2yBFuUMfQAgMCQSxxeTYMdRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2147242.UDftdbSKDt@harvey> <5825074.EPaJEz6dYE@harvey>
 <CACHJcZTq1SDiAXJEHiZuUKyO_2yBFuUMfQAgMCQSxxeTYMdRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2047205.qs3rDs5DNc@harvey>

Hi
So, although those look pretty affordable, I'm rather looking for something
with which I can use a bit more complex recipes in the future, so that I
might actually become able to run an entire CMOS process with silicide,
grow nitride layers and build my own flash memory at some point.
So I keep checking out eBay and I'm also trying to get an offer below 1000
USD from an Israeli firm, but it looks bad... :-/
Which however is no wonder, because their furnace is VERY advanced.

Cheers
-lev

On Monday, April 12, 2021 9:50:46 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> thanks for the hint about carbon, didn't know that. That the furnace is
> top-loading is something I just overlooked. However, the same company has
> front-loading furnaces and it seems that with the Quikmelt, only the
> crucible is made out of graphite, the furnace itself doesn't seem to have
> any. (To be more exact, the description of the Quikmelt says something
> about organic binder and I'm not sure if that leaks any carbon; the
> description of the Rapidfire doesn't say anything like that but the
> material looks similar).
> 
> https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/rapidfire-pro-l/
> https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/rapidfire-pro-lp/
> 
> The -LP variant has more sophisticated temperature control.
> 
> There is another thing that came to my mind about the furnace though: Do
> they have to be airtight, or placed inside an airtight container, for the
> doping steps? IIRC doping has to happen under nitrogen or nitrogen/hydrogen
> atmosphere (or even vacuum) so it doesn't accidentally grow oxide on the
> silicon.
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 4:27 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > There's a problem... It's for vertical loading and the carbon will
> > contaminate
> > the circuit. I know those furnaces well, it's used in recycling Aluminum
> > and
> > for casting. I wanna make a "Liberator" (3D printed gun) into metal
> > using one of those already for a while.
> > However, those furnaces are unsuitable for chip making I'm afraid.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Monday, April 12, 2021 10:49:52 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > so here's some more thoughts about the glove box:
> > > 
> > > - furnace
> > > 
> > > I found this mini furnace manufacturer: https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/
> > > 
> > > They are somewhat outside our price range, about $500, but otherwise
> > > they
> > > match quite well, e.g.
> > 
> > https://www.tabletopfurnace.com/product/quikmelt-10/
> > 
> > > That furnace is electrically powered (you probably shouldn't use a
> > 
> > propane
> > 
> > > furnace indoors), it's tiny so less heat is wasted, and due to its size
> > 
> > it
> > 
> > > should be possible to attach it to the back side of the glove box. I
> > 
> > still
> > 
> > > think that having the furnace inside the box is a problem because the
> > 
> > heat
> > 
> > > cannot escape well, but having it outside and connecting it through
> > 
> > another
> > 
> > > opening in the box should be possible.
> > > 
> > > - insulation
> > > 
> > > You'll still probably have to thermically insulate the furnace from the
> > > glove box (even if the back wall is made of sheet metal and not
> > > acrylic).
> > > My first idea is to use calcium silicate boards, e.g.
> > 
> > https://www.promat.com/en/industry/technologies/calcium-silicates/high-tem
> > pe> 
> > > rature-insulation/
> > > 
> > > These boards are used to insulate masonry heaters from walls and can
> > > take
> > > up to 1000?C -- the outside of the furnace is probably not as hot, so
> > 
> > that
> > 
> > > should be enough. My guess is to use high-temperature mortar to glue the
> > > boards to the furnace (keeping the inside dust-free, it's a clean room
> > > after all) and something more flexible, e.g. high-temperature silicone,
> > 
> > to
> > 
> > > glue the boards to the back side of the glove box. If both connections
> > 
> > were
> > 
> > > rigid then it would break too easily, especially with thermal expansion.
> > > 
> > > The alternative would be rock wool, but that stuff is nasty (at least if
> > > it's similar to glass wool). Calcium silicate is similar to gypsum in
> > > handling, just more expensive.
> > > 
> > > - spin coater
> > > 
> > > My first idea to make this cheap is an axle connected to a disk and
> > 
> > mounted
> > 
> > > in such a way that the axle can spin but not tilt. You could then attach
> > 
> > a
> > 
> > > handheld drill to the bottom of the axle to spin it.I still like the
> > > idea
> > > except that the disk has to be inside the glove box and the axle has to
> > > leave the box at the bottom, so keeping it dust-tight AND freely
> > 
> > spinnable
> > 
> > > but not tiltable is the main challenge with that. Someone who is wiser
> > > in
> > > mechanics can probably do that easily.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > 
> > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > > Maybe you can join today 6pm UTC on our Mumble server
> > > > murmur.libresilicon.com
> > > > and we can discuss where to best place the airlock and how to build it
> > 
> > the
> > 
> > > > easiest and cheapest way?
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > -lev
> > > > 
> > > > On Sunday, April 11, 2021 8:17:01 AM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > > Hi David,
> > > > > 
> > > > > some ideas / questions:
> > > > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything
> > > > > 
> > > > > Pardon my ignorance, but how are you going to see what you are doing
> > 
> > in
> > 
> > > > > there? Did you mean that one side is still acrylic? Front or top?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > airlock
> > > > > 
> > > > > If this is on the side wall, then it is probably hard to reach with
> > 
> > your
> > 
> > > > > hands. On the other hand, the back wall (opposite of the gloves) is
> > 
> > the
> > 
> > > > > most precious space you have and "wasting" it for the airlock is not
> > > > > good
> > > > > either...
> > > > > 
> > > > > A quick idea would be to attach the airlock at the bottom, with the
> > > > > outer
> > > > > door facing towards you and the inner door being a "trap door" in
> > > > > the
> > > > > bottom of the box.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > tools
> > > > > 
> > > > > If everything happens inside the box, space is even more precious.
> > > > > You'll
> > > > > need storage for the materials and chemicals, illumination stage,
> > > > > hot
> > > > > plate, spin coater, furnace, ... A rotating shelf on the back side
> > 
> > might
> > 
> > > > be
> > > > 
> > > > > a solution for that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > OTOH, an unsolved problem is be what the residual heat of the
> > 
> > furnace is
> > 
> > > > > going to do to the acrylic box...
> > > > > 
> > > > > > gloves
> > > > > 
> > > > > Gloves always bring the danger of trapping hazardous chemicals
> > 
> > *inside*,
> > 
> > > > > right next to your hands. You'll probably need a material that
> > > > > withstands
> > > > > *all* of those chemicals, otherwise you might have the piranha etch
> > 
> > make
> > 
> > > > > the gloves porous and then HF leak through them... A simple warning
> > 
> > not
> > 
> > > > to
> > > > 
> > > > > spill anything over the gloves is probably not enough because these
> > > > 
> > > > things
> > > > 
> > > > > just happen anyway.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Greetings,
> > > > > Martin
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:33 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > > > 
> > > > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > I was thinking about using sheet metal for everything which
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > 
> > > > need
> > > > 
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > transparent (even cheaper than acrylic glas).
> > > > > > For the airlock I was figuring I could do a cut out like in the
> > > > 
> > > > attached
> > > > 
> > > > > > screen and fold it, then either weld or screw an aluminum box made
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > folded
> > > > > > sheet metal as well.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > -lev_______________________________________________
> > > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > 
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr 15 18:11:34 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:11:34 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper
Message-ID: <6477341.5thujjIAPZ@harvey>

Hi
I guess I'll probably build something like this table here with linear ball 
bearings and a fixed gear shift which divides the steps of the stepper motor,
so that I can have an appropriate stepping resolution for positioning.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4001178550238.html

I'm aware of the trouble with parallel alignment of two linear rail bars, but
I'm afraid I'll have to deal with it, for at least one of the axis.

I'll probably start ordering the parts as soon as I'm done moving into the
new location next week and then I'll start extending the construction from
there until I've got at least the x-y-positioning figured out.

The loading mechanism also is pretty annoying... Besides having to build
my own custom guided ball bearing for the angular alignment, I'll need at
least 4 customely made metal parts... :-/

Cheers
-lev


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr 15 18:15:41 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:15:41 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper
In-Reply-To: <6477341.5thujjIAPZ@harvey>
References: <6477341.5thujjIAPZ@harvey>
Message-ID: <3732790.ooN88RcT6h@harvey>

Hi
That's essentially it... Just with steppers... and a pneumatic thingy in the 
middle which comes up sucks at the waver, then the arm goes away and it goes 
back down to the surface...

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005001335440793.html

Cheers
-lev

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 5:11:34 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> I guess I'll probably build something like this table here with linear ball
> bearings and a fixed gear shift which divides the steps of the stepper
> motor, so that I can have an appropriate stepping resolution for
> positioning. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4001178550238.html
> 
> I'm aware of the trouble with parallel alignment of two linear rail bars,
> but I'm afraid I'll have to deal with it, for at least one of the axis.
> 
> I'll probably start ordering the parts as soon as I'm done moving into the
> new location next week and then I'll start extending the construction from
> there until I've got at least the x-y-positioning figured out.
> 
> The loading mechanism also is pretty annoying... Besides having to build
> my own custom guided ball bearing for the angular alignment, I'll need at
> least 4 customely made metal parts... :-/
> 
> Cheers
> -lev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Thu Apr 15 21:05:14 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 20:05:14 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper resolution
Message-ID: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>

Hi
So turns out there's another way to achieve higher resolutions (below 100nm), 
without having to use EUV light and low pressure.
You can give your exposure unit a nice bath :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_lithography

What do you folks think? Worth considering putting on our TODO list for future
stepper iterations?

Cheers
-lev


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Apr 16 13:33:35 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:33:35 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper resolution
In-Reply-To: <CAP7JdrKxJC1QiPwz9eJAO0UN7mgZXQu4fKc4VgNvWpeF5nmsdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>
 <CAP7JdrKxJC1QiPwz9eJAO0UN7mgZXQu4fKc4VgNvWpeF5nmsdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1763286.JGuLTu1AGB@harvey>

Hi
I'm aware of the complexity... That's I said "future iterations" :-)

Cheers
-lev

On Friday, April 16, 2021 10:19:48 AM WEST ludwig jaffe wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> this looks interesting, but beware complexity!
> Polarization and other effects are to be taken care of.
> 
> One idea for this would be to use oil immersion lenses
> of microscopes and to try to reverse the beam pattern and
> to step these.
> 
> But we are hobbyists, and the only advantage we have is
> access to knowledge but we also dont get all the details.
> 
> So being part time scientists we should aim for low hanging fruit
> first.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ludwig
> 
> On 4/15/21, David Lanzend?rfer <leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > So turns out there's another way to achieve higher resolutions (below
> > 100nm),
> > without having to use EUV light and low pressure.
> > You can give your exposure unit a nice bath :-)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_lithography
> > 
> > What do you folks think? Worth considering putting on our TODO list for
> > future
> > stepper iterations?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From pavel at noa-labs.com  Fri Apr 16 13:51:07 2021
From: pavel at noa-labs.com (Pavel Nikulin)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 17:51:07 +0600
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper resolution
In-Reply-To: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>
References: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>
Message-ID: <CAG-pW8F82v5vz-BW05CLhPwJq1dCYzcfpzkds-tPbXqmq-G5Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Atm, the project is light years away from when air in between lens,
and the die is a problem.

Before you will run out of raw numeric aperture, things like
temperature control, nanometric precision overlay etc, etc, etc will
have to be solved first.


Pavel Nikulin
Software Engineer
+7 702 851 0788
pavel at noa-labs.com



On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:05 AM David Lanzend?rfer
<leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> So turns out there's another way to achieve higher resolutions (below 100nm),
> without having to use EUV light and low pressure.
> You can give your exposure unit a nice bath :-)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_lithography
>
> What do you folks think? Worth considering putting on our TODO list for future
> stepper iterations?
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Apr 16 13:59:00 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:59:00 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper resolution
In-Reply-To: <CAG-pW8F82v5vz-BW05CLhPwJq1dCYzcfpzkds-tPbXqmq-G5Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>
 <CAG-pW8F82v5vz-BW05CLhPwJq1dCYzcfpzkds-tPbXqmq-G5Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1810308.qL6p1pemlY@harvey>

Agreed

On Friday, April 16, 2021 12:51:07 PM WEST Pavel Nikulin wrote:
> Atm, the project is light years away from when air in between lens,
> and the die is a problem.
> 
> Before you will run out of raw numeric aperture, things like
> temperature control, nanometric precision overlay etc, etc, etc will
> have to be solved first.
> 
> 
> Pavel Nikulin
> Software Engineer
> +7 702 851 0788
> pavel at noa-labs.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:05 AM David Lanzend?rfer
> 
> <leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > So turns out there's another way to achieve higher resolutions (below
> > 100nm), without having to use EUV light and low pressure.
> > You can give your exposure unit a nice bath :-)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_lithography
> > 
> > What do you folks think? Worth considering putting on our TODO list for
> > future stepper iterations?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Apr 16 19:00:46 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 17:00:46 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Ouch!
Message-ID: <618a1c22-b0d0-5fbd-dd3a-4e68d6b8bc8f@posteo.de>

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/Chip-tools-become-latest-victim-of-global-semiconductor-crunch

From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Apr 16 19:05:59 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 17:05:59 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
	2021-04-18 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <699c326c-036d-8e23-7c7b-70280bdaa13c@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2021-04-18 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.

From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Apr 16 19:10:06 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 17:10:06 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Stepper resolution
In-Reply-To: <CAG-pW8F82v5vz-BW05CLhPwJq1dCYzcfpzkds-tPbXqmq-G5Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7296479.tbjGQoqpg4@harvey>
 <CAG-pW8F82v5vz-BW05CLhPwJq1dCYzcfpzkds-tPbXqmq-G5Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ee01751-d086-a5e6-cb51-1b09b4330eca@posteo.de>

Nevertheless we should keep in mind this possibility :-)

On 4/16/21 1:51 PM, Pavel Nikulin wrote:
> Atm, the project is light years away from when air in between lens,
> and the die is a problem.
> 
> Before you will run out of raw numeric aperture, things like
> temperature control, nanometric precision overlay etc, etc, etc will
> have to be solved first.
> 
> 
> Pavel Nikulin
> Software Engineer
> +7 702 851 0788
> pavel at noa-labs.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:05 AM David Lanzend?rfer
> <leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>> So turns out there's another way to achieve higher resolutions (below 100nm),
>> without having to use EUV light and low pressure.
>> You can give your exposure unit a nice bath :-)
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_lithography
>>
>> What do you folks think? Worth considering putting on our TODO list for future
>> stepper iterations?
>>
>> Cheers
>> -lev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> 

From hsank at posteo.de  Sat Apr 24 14:00:22 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 12:00:22 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
	2021-04-25 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <cf687dfb-b40f-1d93-3a7d-329629ae8550@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2021-04-25 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.

From hsank at posteo.de  Sun Apr 25 16:03:20 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:03:20 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Particle Counter
Message-ID: <9b7277c3-724c-cf25-2d8a-7d859a310a37@posteo.de>

Hello List.

A couple of Mumble Sessions before we talked about our Glove Box design
once again..

Well, one action item was to figure out, how we can verify the clean
room quality inside the Glove Box. And I remembered some nice handy-size
Analyzer I saw already for this purpose (to check 'dirtyness' behind
machines in the productive clean room behind machines or to check air
flow in and outs).

Fortunately, due to German Engineering Art in cheating with diesel
engines (Volkswagen, Audi etc..) "fine dust" is a big topic nowadays.
Okay, is was joke..

But, instruments to measure the fine dust in our daily environment, in
cities along heavy used streets or so, are already available in bigger
super markets like Kaufland here in Germany now. And this instruments
offers 2 fine dust classes - one with 10 Micron and another with 2.5
Micron particle size. Of course, this is still a dimension away from
particle sizes which matters for real clean room classes - regardless of
which clean room class system (ISO 14644-1 or US Federal Standard 209 E)
we are looking at.

Anyway, IMHO this instruments are a great and quite reasonable priced
step into particle measurements at all :-)

The mentioned super market has currently an offer round about 200 Euros;
on ebay.com similar instruments are available from 150 Euros upwards.

Maybe we can even "update" the firmware on such a instrument for smaller
particle sizes :-o

Regards,
Hagen.

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Wed Apr 28 11:23:57 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:23:57 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
Message-ID: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

- spin coating

I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof did, by
mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case fan from
another device I had lying around). I can't say this is the way to go...
the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a meaningful speed. It is also
very hard to center the can exactly, so it wobbles a lot and that probably
reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die without a container would allow
the fan to spin faster, but would likely clog the fan with chemicals in no
time. I'll next try my original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll
stick into a power drill.

One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be evenly
applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by itself,
but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated stream, probably due
to surface tension.

- chemicals

I did find this resist which is meant for PCB etching, so I don't know yet
whether it has some kind of "grain size" that limits the resolution. The
datasheet explicitly states that it can take up to 40% hydrofluoric acid,
though, and be used for glass etching (so I hope it will actually stick to
glass). It is also liquid until soft-baking, so spin-coating should be
possible.
https://www.reichelt.de/fotopositiv-resist-positiv-20-200-ml-kontakt-235-p9493.html

WRT hydrofluoric acid, there is something called "glass etching cream", the
best-known brand being "Armour Etch". This contains fluorides, i.e. HF
salts, is *somewhat* safer than HF itself (less fumes I think, but don't
get it on your skin), and can be ordered by private individuals. The
downside is that I could not find any information on whether it contains an
abrasive.

- photolithography

Sam Zeloof used a modified DLP projector for his litho setup. He either
used magic to do that or chose exactly the right projector. I took apart a
used DLP and the UV filter is the only thing that could be taken out
without destroying the projector. The color wheel, and even more so the
optics, are buried under tons of other stuff, most of which is glued
together. Also, the optics path itself is mostly glued. So I think David's
plan of taking the DMD chip and building his own optics setup is a far
better idea than modding a projector.

To me as a layman in these things, stiching a larger image together from
multiple images with a stepper sounds more logical than using multiple DMD
chips. This XY table is cheap and has stepper motors that can position the
table in increments of 5 microns. I have actually wondered if a first
prototype should use a DMD at all, or just focus a single UV LED and "draw"
by moving the XY table.
https://www.amazon.de/Proxxon-27100-MICRO-Koordinatentisch-KT/dp/B000S81MHY

- strategy

I also thought a bit about who would be interested in making your own
chips. High-volume production has far better, established processes, and
low-volume production would use an FPGA or other off-the-shelf parts.
Silicon testing before production isn't useful when the process is
different. This leaves education and hobbyists. In other words, a free
silicon process must be sustainable based solely on education and
hobbyists, otherwise it won't stand a chance.

There is another problem that goes in the same direction: a "democratized"
chip making process should not rely on actors like INL, because there are
too few of them -- less than 10 in the whole of Europe. Even if INL agrees
to host the LibreSilicon process, a single decision by INL that chip making
isn't interesting anymore can shut the whole thing down.

I'm not particularly enthusiatic about the "glove box" idea either because
I don't think it is practical, nor doable in a useful price range.

The usual answer to the "expensive tools" problem is shared labs, usually
as "fab labs", "makerspaces" or similar. I think this is a way in which
chip making could actually work, especially if it works on dual-use tools
that benefit a makerspace in other ways, like an XY table, microscope etc.
I wanted to contact a local makerspace in my town, but unfortunately
Germany just went into full Covid lockdown, so it's going to take a while
until that.


Greetings,
Martin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210428/6f9acc91/attachment.html>

From staf at fibraservi.eu  Wed Apr 28 13:24:57 2021
From: staf at fibraservi.eu (Staf Verhaegen)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:24:57 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9e5ef28a6ddc374bf36f1d608291aa3220b00f24.camel@fibraservi.eu>

On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> - spin coating
> 
> I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof
> did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case
> fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is the
> way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a meaningful
> speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it wobbles
> a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die
> without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> power drill.
> 
> One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be evenly
> applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by
> itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> stream, probably due to surface tension.

If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense liquid
in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.

greets,
Staf.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210428/bb9d6054/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 488 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210428/bb9d6054/attachment.sig>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Wed Apr 28 17:06:21 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 16:06:21 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <9e5ef28a6ddc374bf36f1d608291aa3220b00f24.camel@fibraservi.eu>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e5ef28a6ddc374bf36f1d608291aa3220b00f24.camel@fibraservi.eu>
Message-ID: <2319423.kp56sYrUvu@harvey>

Exactly.
First you've gotta spin up the wafer, and then you've gotta dispense it
kind of towards the center, but it's not so critical.
I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
primer first.
https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Silan-Glas-Primer-Transparent-1-L-Flasche/?N=5002385+3294237313&rt=rud

Cheers
-lev

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:24:57 PM WEST Staf Verhaegen wrote:
> On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > - spin coating
> > 
> > I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof
> > did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case
> > fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is the
> > way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a meaningful
> > speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it wobbles
> > a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die
> > without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> > likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> > original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> > power drill.
> > 
> > One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be evenly
> > applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by
> > itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> > stream, probably due to surface tension.
> 
> If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
> up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense liquid
> in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.
> 
> greets,
> Staf.




From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Wed Apr 28 19:36:11 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:36:11 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <2319423.kp56sYrUvu@harvey>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e5ef28a6ddc374bf36f1d608291aa3220b00f24.camel@fibraservi.eu>
 <2319423.kp56sYrUvu@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZTB9vfN=bNqChoApQ5KWojOQ_nwNUEWtsxiqNNp2igLWw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
up the wafer and then dispense the liquid

That did the job. I still think that the RPM is quite low because the fan
is too weak, and I might later switch to the power drill to improve that,
but applying the liquid only after the motor is spinning is definitely very
important.

> You need to dispense liquid in middle of wafer as liquid will online move
outwards.

Obviously :)

> I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a primer
first.

I only did a test, spinning oil onto a coin. I guess that the primer helps
with wetting and/or sticking to the wafer surface, which wasn't (yet) a
problem in my test. Anyway, good to know!

Greetings,
Martin


On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:06 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Exactly.
> First you've gotta spin up the wafer, and then you've gotta dispense it
> kind of towards the center, but it's not so critical.
> I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
> primer first.
>
> https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Silan-Glas-Primer-Transparent-1-L-Flasche/?N=5002385+3294237313&rt=rud
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:24:57 PM WEST Staf Verhaegen wrote:
> > On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > - spin coating
> > >
> > > I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof
> > > did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case
> > > fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is the
> > > way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a meaningful
> > > speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it wobbles
> > > a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die
> > > without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> > > likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> > > original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> > > power drill.
> > >
> > > One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be evenly
> > > applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by
> > > itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> > > stream, probably due to surface tension.
> >
> > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
> > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense liquid
> > in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.
> >
> > greets,
> > Staf.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210428/703d9637/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Apr 30 14:52:54 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:52:54 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZTB9vfN=bNqChoApQ5KWojOQ_nwNUEWtsxiqNNp2igLWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2319423.kp56sYrUvu@harvey>
 <CACHJcZTB9vfN=bNqChoApQ5KWojOQ_nwNUEWtsxiqNNp2igLWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2283742.WTMS2gejt6@harvey>

Hi
So I've now set up the office here with tables and stuff and could reproduce
your experiments.
If we know which motor performs ok for building a cheap spin coater, I could
actually build one a little bit more professionally, by ordering some of those
motors from Aliexpress.
We could then sell those coaters on eBay and finance LibreSilicon
a bit with it.

What do you think?

Cheers
-lev

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 6:36:11 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
> 
> up the wafer and then dispense the liquid
> 
> That did the job. I still think that the RPM is quite low because the fan
> is too weak, and I might later switch to the power drill to improve that,
> but applying the liquid only after the motor is spinning is definitely very
> important.
> 
> > You need to dispense liquid in middle of wafer as liquid will online move
> 
> outwards.
> 
> Obviously :)
> 
> > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a primer
> 
> first.
> 
> I only did a test, spinning oil onto a coin. I guess that the primer helps
> with wetting and/or sticking to the wafer surface, which wasn't (yet) a
> problem in my test. Anyway, good to know!
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:06 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Exactly.
> > First you've gotta spin up the wafer, and then you've gotta dispense it
> > kind of towards the center, but it's not so critical.
> > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
> > primer first.
> > 
> > https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Silan-G
> > las-Primer-Transparent-1-L-Flasche/?N=5002385+3294237313&rt=rud
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:24:57 PM WEST Staf Verhaegen wrote:
> > > On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > - spin coating
> > > > 
> > > > I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof
> > > > did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case
> > > > fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is the
> > > > way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a meaningful
> > > > speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it wobbles
> > > > a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die
> > > > without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> > > > likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> > > > original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> > > > power drill.
> > > > 
> > > > One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be evenly
> > > > applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by
> > > > itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> > > > stream, probably due to surface tension.
> > > 
> > > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
> > > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense liquid
> > > in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.
> > > 
> > > greets,
> > > Staf.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers




From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Apr 30 14:56:11 2021
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:56:11 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday
	2021-05-02 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <47004b70-7034-88c6-c7d8-3aee3d2a4fea@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2021-05-02 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Fri Apr 30 16:34:10 2021
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:34:10 +0200
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <2283742.WTMS2gejt6@harvey>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2319423.kp56sYrUvu@harvey>
 <CACHJcZTB9vfN=bNqChoApQ5KWojOQ_nwNUEWtsxiqNNp2igLWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2283742.WTMS2gejt6@harvey>
Message-ID: <CACHJcZT2X41ojxjOVjLHgn93CgzpnzBBk=7YXh2goaNmaU8uvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm not sure who would be interested in buying a cheap makeshift
spin-coater since you cannot get anywhere with just that, and it's
super-easy to make yourself. For somebody who wants to make their own
chips, a much more interesting target would IMHO be a development board for
the DMD chip, even if it is nothing more than power, capacitors and a pin
header for everything else. The DMD chip has an LGA package, and another
one I found at TI has a PGA package, so that's a bit tough to solder by
hand. There are dev boards available, but they are basically a simple
projector (e.g. including optics) [1] -- maybe it is possible to modify
that instead of a full projector.

[1]
https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/DLPDLCR2000EVM?qs=BZBei1rCqCAQetmBz0G1xQ==

Anyway, I can't tell you the model of the fan/motor since it is one of the
case fans of the DLP projector I took apart. I'm pretty sure that I can get
a better PC case fan for 2? at the next supplier for computer parts.

WRT financing, let me repeat that I'm willing to spend money on even the
simplest chips, at this point even a single MOSFET, if they prove that the
whole idea isn't vaporware. I'm pretty sure we can find more people that
feel the same when the first actual device gets posted to Hackaday and
similar sites. Also, a Patreon site like [2] may help, but again, only if
you can actually present something working (that guy can't). I think Sam
Zeloof neglected this too much and didn't give people an easy way to send
him money, because I'm convinced he would have gotten a lot of it.

[2] https://www.patreon.com/user?u=14363159

Greetings,
Martin



On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 2:52 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

> Hi
> So I've now set up the office here with tables and stuff and could
> reproduce
> your experiments.
> If we know which motor performs ok for building a cheap spin coater, I
> could
> actually build one a little bit more professionally, by ordering some of
> those
> motors from Aliexpress.
> We could then sell those coaters on eBay and finance LibreSilicon
> a bit with it.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Cheers
> -lev
>
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 6:36:11 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first spin
> >
> > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid
> >
> > That did the job. I still think that the RPM is quite low because the fan
> > is too weak, and I might later switch to the power drill to improve that,
> > but applying the liquid only after the motor is spinning is definitely
> very
> > important.
> >
> > > You need to dispense liquid in middle of wafer as liquid will online
> move
> >
> > outwards.
> >
> > Obviously :)
> >
> > > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a primer
> >
> > first.
> >
> > I only did a test, spinning oil onto a coin. I guess that the primer
> helps
> > with wetting and/or sticking to the wafer surface, which wasn't (yet) a
> > problem in my test. Anyway, good to know!
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:06 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> >
> > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > Exactly.
> > > First you've gotta spin up the wafer, and then you've gotta dispense it
> > > kind of towards the center, but it's not so critical.
> > > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
> > > primer first.
> > >
> > >
> https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Silan-G
> > > las-Primer-Transparent-1-L-Flasche/?N=5002385+3294237313&rt=rud
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:24:57 PM WEST Staf Verhaegen wrote:
> > > > On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > - spin coating
> > > > >
> > > > > I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam Zeloof
> > > > > did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a case
> > > > > fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is
> the
> > > > > way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a
> meaningful
> > > > > speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it
> wobbles
> > > > > a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a die
> > > > > without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> > > > > likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> > > > > original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> > > > > power drill.
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be
> evenly
> > > > > applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface by
> > > > > itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> > > > > stream, probably due to surface tension.
> > > >
> > > > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first
> spin
> > > > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense
> liquid
> > > > in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.
> > > >
> > > > greets,
> > > > Staf.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20210430/6484f9fc/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Apr 30 18:08:02 2021
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:08:02 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] coating / chemicals / litho / strategy
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZT2X41ojxjOVjLHgn93CgzpnzBBk=7YXh2goaNmaU8uvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHJcZR_xW=yYnO5P=ANvXo4WAoVSGOH1UR4GjZDpN1BUfOsvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2283742.WTMS2gejt6@harvey>
 <CACHJcZT2X41ojxjOVjLHgn93CgzpnzBBk=7YXh2goaNmaU8uvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7466862.mENeaHPDtb@harvey>

Hi
I think this one is more suitable:
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/DLP2000AFQC?
qs=T3oQrply3y%252B2%252BSUG%252B1A5CA%3D%3D

The board is connected through an FQC 42 connector socket, which I'm
right now unable to find online.
I guess I've gotta do some more digging on Alibaba and so on, in order
to get my hands on one of those.

Cheers
-lev

On Friday, April 30, 2021 3:34:10 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure who would be interested in buying a cheap makeshift
> spin-coater since you cannot get anywhere with just that, and it's
> super-easy to make yourself. For somebody who wants to make their own
> chips, a much more interesting target would IMHO be a development board for
> the DMD chip, even if it is nothing more than power, capacitors and a pin
> header for everything else. The DMD chip has an LGA package, and another
> one I found at TI has a PGA package, so that's a bit tough to solder by
> hand. There are dev boards available, but they are basically a simple
> projector (e.g. including optics) [1] -- maybe it is possible to modify
> that instead of a full projector.
> 
> [1]
> https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/DLPDLCR2000EVM?qs=BZBe
> i1rCqCAQetmBz0G1xQ==
> 
> Anyway, I can't tell you the model of the fan/motor since it is one of the
> case fans of the DLP projector I took apart. I'm pretty sure that I can get
> a better PC case fan for 2? at the next supplier for computer parts.
> 
> WRT financing, let me repeat that I'm willing to spend money on even the
> simplest chips, at this point even a single MOSFET, if they prove that the
> whole idea isn't vaporware. I'm pretty sure we can find more people that
> feel the same when the first actual device gets posted to Hackaday and
> similar sites. Also, a Patreon site like [2] may help, but again, only if
> you can actually present something working (that guy can't). I think Sam
> Zeloof neglected this too much and didn't give people an easy way to send
> him money, because I'm convinced he would have gotten a lot of it.
> 
> [2] https://www.patreon.com/user?u=14363159
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 2:52 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > So I've now set up the office here with tables and stuff and could
> > reproduce
> > your experiments.
> > If we know which motor performs ok for building a cheap spin coater, I
> > could
> > actually build one a little bit more professionally, by ordering some of
> > those
> > motors from Aliexpress.
> > We could then sell those coaters on eBay and finance LibreSilicon
> > a bit with it.
> > 
> > What do you think?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 6:36:11 PM WEST Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first
> > > > spin
> > > 
> > > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid
> > > 
> > > That did the job. I still think that the RPM is quite low because the
> > > fan
> > > is too weak, and I might later switch to the power drill to improve
> > > that,
> > > but applying the liquid only after the motor is spinning is definitely
> > 
> > very
> > 
> > > important.
> > > 
> > > > You need to dispense liquid in middle of wafer as liquid will online
> > 
> > move
> > 
> > > outwards.
> > > 
> > > Obviously :)
> > > 
> > > > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
> > > > primer
> > > 
> > > first.
> > > 
> > > I only did a test, spinning oil onto a coin. I guess that the primer
> > 
> > helps
> > 
> > > with wetting and/or sticking to the wafer surface, which wasn't (yet) a
> > > problem in my test. Anyway, good to know!
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:06 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> > > 
> > > leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > > > Exactly.
> > > > First you've gotta spin up the wafer, and then you've gotta dispense
> > > > it
> > > > kind of towards the center, but it's not so critical.
> > > > I guess, you're experiencing problems because you didn't apply a
> > > > primer first.
> > 
> > https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Silan-G
> > 
> > > > las-Primer-Transparent-1-L-Flasche/?N=5002385+3294237313&rt=rud
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > -lev
> > > > 
> > > > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:24:57 PM WEST Staf Verhaegen wrote:
> > > > > On wo, 2021-04-28 at 11:23 +0200, Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > - spin coating
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I finally tried to build a makeshift spin coater the way Sam
> > > > > > Zeloof
> > > > > > did, by mounting a plastic can on top of a CPU fan (actually a
> > > > > > case
> > > > > > fan from another device I had lying around). I can't say this is
> > 
> > the
> > 
> > > > > > way to go... the fan is way too weak to spin the can at a
> > 
> > meaningful
> > 
> > > > > > speed. It is also very hard to center the can exactly, so it
> > 
> > wobbles
> > 
> > > > > > a lot and that probably reduces the speed even more. Mounting a
> > > > > > die
> > > > > > without a container would allow the fan to spin faster, but would
> > > > > > likely clog the fan with chemicals in no time. I'll next try my
> > > > > > original idea, to mount the can to an axle that I'll stick into a
> > > > > > power drill.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > One thing I did find out is that the coating liquid should be
> > 
> > evenly
> > 
> > > > > > applied before spinning. It will NOT spread to the whole surface
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > itself, but rather run to a single direction in a concentrated
> > > > > > stream, probably due to surface tension.
> > > > > 
> > > > > If I remember correctly the spin coaters used in clean rooms first
> > 
> > spin
> > 
> > > > > up the wafer and then dispense the liquid. You need to dispense
> > 
> > liquid
> > 
> > > > > in middle of wafer as liquid will online move outwards.
> > > > > 
> > > > > greets,
> > > > > Staf.
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers