From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 1 14:07:51 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 13:07:51 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-01 @ 18:00 UTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3068062.zR4anMovyI@harvey> Hi everyone! I'm excited to announce that today we'll meet a new member of our team. Dilek is an experienced process engineer and exactly the help I was hoping for, for so long, to get in the team. I hope that with her help we will not only finally get this maskless lithography unit working but will also be one step closer to actually having a spec at some point for the LibreSilicon process standard, so that we can submit it to IEEE. If you wanna meet her as well (at least hear the voice, because Mumble is a voice chat only Haha), join today in our Mumble session and give her a warm welcome to the team. Cheers -lev On Friday, July 30, 2021 11:25:54 AM WEST Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote: > Hello List! > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > 2021-08-01 @ 18:00 UTC. > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. > > Regards, > Hagen. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 1 15:46:34 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 14:46:34 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Maskless lithography Message-ID: <4263812.qWKTEQbqDF@harvey> Howdy So I came across those two components which can solve our positioning problem with the wafer: Those LEDs produce a light within the spectrum we need in order to shine through silicon (1000nm ~ 1400nm): https://tech-led.com/en/product/ir-nir-leds/ The OV5647 is sensible up to at least 1000 nm and is quite affordable: https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Dev/RaspberryPi/ov5647_full.pdf There are OV5647 imaging modules available for Raspberry Pi. I'll try to contact Marubemi directly and ask them for a quotation on their NIR/IR LEDs in the wavelength range we require and while I'm on it, I'll also check with them for a potentially more suitable CMOS sensor, then I'll compare the prices. As I've discussed with Dilek, the goal is to produce an affordable stepper suitable for hobbyists and small labs with limited budget. Cheers David -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 2 04:57:46 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 03:57:46 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Maskless lithography In-Reply-To: <4263812.qWKTEQbqDF@harvey> References: <4263812.qWKTEQbqDF@harvey> Message-ID: <7469796.VXnI6kSHeN@harvey> Hi all I just woke up from bed again with the idea to use use laser triangulation for the distance measurement, since there's an inexpensive solution already for Arduino: https://rohling-de.blogspot.com/2017/04/shooting-laser-to-measure-distance.html https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/vl6180x.pdf The internal ADC has a resolution of 16 bits, which should be sufficient to resolve the small distance a table for a 2 inch wafer has to travel. Cheers David On Sunday, August 1, 2021 2:46:34 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Howdy > So I came across those two components which can solve our positioning > problem with the wafer: > > Those LEDs produce a light within the spectrum we need in order to shine > through silicon (1000nm ~ 1400nm): > https://tech-led.com/en/product/ir-nir-leds/ > > The OV5647 is sensible up to at least 1000 nm and is quite affordable: > https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Dev/RaspberryPi/ov5647_full.pdf > > There are OV5647 imaging modules available for Raspberry Pi. > I'll try to contact Marubemi directly and ask them for a quotation on their > NIR/IR LEDs in the wavelength range we require and while I'm on it, I'll > also check with them for a potentially more suitable CMOS sensor, then I'll > compare the prices. > As I've discussed with Dilek, the goal is to produce an affordable stepper > suitable for hobbyists and small labs with limited budget. > > Cheers > David -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From trdilek at protonmail.com Mon Aug 2 05:58:32 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 03:58:32 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Maskless lithography In-Reply-To: <7469796.VXnI6kSHeN@harvey> References: <4263812.qWKTEQbqDF@harvey> <7469796.VXnI6kSHeN@harvey> Message-ID: Looks good David, I started to create a road map to be discussed. Dilek -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 1, 2021, 7:57 PM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi all > I just woke up from bed again with the idea to use use laser triangulation for > the distance measurement, since there's an inexpensive solution already for > Arduino: > https://rohling-de.blogspot.com/2017/04/shooting-laser-to-measure-distance.html > https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/vl6180x.pdf > The internal ADC has a resolution of 16 bits, which should be sufficient to > resolve the small distance a table for a 2 inch wafer has to travel. > > Cheers > David > > On Sunday, August 1, 2021 2:46:34 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote: >> Howdy >> So I came across those two components which can solve our positioning >> problem with the wafer: >> >> Those LEDs produce a light within the spectrum we need in order to shine >> through silicon (1000nm ~ 1400nm): >> https://tech-led.com/en/product/ir-nir-leds/ >> >> The OV5647 is sensible up to at least 1000 nm and is quite affordable: >> https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Dev/RaspberryPi/ov5647_full.pdf >> >> There are OV5647 imaging modules available for Raspberry Pi. >> I'll try to contact Marubemi directly and ask them for a quotation on their >> NIR/IR LEDs in the wavelength range we require and while I'm on it, I'll >> also check with them for a potentially more suitable CMOS sensor, then I'll >> compare the prices. >> As I've discussed with Dilek, the goal is to produce an affordable stepper >> suitable for hobbyists and small labs with limited budget. >> >> Cheers >> David > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 2 11:44:47 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 10:44:47 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Maskless lithography In-Reply-To: References: <4263812.qWKTEQbqDF@harvey> <7469796.VXnI6kSHeN@harvey> Message-ID: <3022706.YyjLaMisZe@harvey> Awesome Dilek! I'm looking forward to discussing it! David On Monday, August 2, 2021 4:58:32 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Looks good David, > > I started to create a road map to be discussed. > > Dilek > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Aug 1, 2021, 7:57 PM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Hi all > > I just woke up from bed again with the idea to use use laser triangulation > > for the distance measurement, since there's an inexpensive solution > > already for Arduino: > > https://rohling-de.blogspot.com/2017/04/shooting-laser-to-measure-distance > > .html https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/vl6180x.pdf > > The internal ADC has a resolution of 16 bits, which should be sufficient > > to > > resolve the small distance a table for a 2 inch wafer has to travel. > > > > Cheers > > David > > > > On Sunday, August 1, 2021 2:46:34 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > >> Howdy > >> So I came across those two components which can solve our positioning > >> problem with the wafer: > >> > >> Those LEDs produce a light within the spectrum we need in order to shine > >> through silicon (1000nm ~ 1400nm): > >> https://tech-led.com/en/product/ir-nir-leds/ > >> > >> The OV5647 is sensible up to at least 1000 nm and is quite affordable: > >> https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Dev/RaspberryPi/ov5647_full.pdf > >> > >> There are OV5647 imaging modules available for Raspberry Pi. > >> I'll try to contact Marubemi directly and ask them for a quotation on > >> their > >> NIR/IR LEDs in the wavelength range we require and while I'm on it, I'll > >> also check with them for a potentially more suitable CMOS sensor, then > >> I'll > >> compare the prices. > >> As I've discussed with Dilek, the goal is to produce an affordable > >> stepper > >> suitable for hobbyists and small labs with limited budget. > >> > >> Cheers > >> David > > > > -- > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > (")_(") > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > signature to help him gain world domination > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Tue Aug 3 16:45:13 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 15:45:13 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Precision leadscrews Message-ID: <15076580.op5bxystSB@harvey> Hello everyone So I've been checking for affordable precision leadscrews for positioning the table and came across this web shop here: https://shop.mitutoyo.eu/web/mitutoyo/en/mitutoyo/01.02.07.04/ Precision%20Lead%20Screw/$catalogue/mitutoyoData/PR/04AZA161/index.xhtml What do you think? -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From trdilek at protonmail.com Tue Aug 3 16:47:04 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 14:47:04 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Precision leadscrews In-Reply-To: <15076580.op5bxystSB@harvey> References: <15076580.op5bxystSB@harvey> Message-ID: Hi, it does not open correctly but I use a mitutoyo gauge and it is extremely precise. Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 3, 2021, 7:45 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hello everyone > So I've been checking for affordable precision leadscrews for positioning the > table and came across this web shop here: > https://shop.mitutoyo.eu/web/mitutoyo/en/mitutoyo/01.02.07.04/ > Precision%20Lead%20Screw/$catalogue/mitutoyoData/PR/04AZA161/index.xhtml > > What do you think? > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hsank at posteo.de Fri Aug 6 21:37:56 2021 From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:37:56 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC Message-ID: Hello List! This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC. Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC. We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. Regards, Hagen. From trdilek at protonmail.com Mon Aug 9 03:53:13 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2021 01:53:13 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I was not able to join you today although I had some info gathered for the meeting. I did some research on how to proceed with this. Read some articles and checked company websites. WHAT I DID: I started with checking how the stepper works and what parts will be required. I checked the MLE (Maskless Exposure Systems) producers. Working principles of the DLP and DMDs which forms the DLP. IMPORTANT PART IS HERE: Big Components that should make the stepper are DLP Software Objective column with a cooling set A stage with x y z control, aligner Light sources UV and IR light sources and sensors These are the basic parts I see. You can specialize the equipment from there. There are details into these which are of course much more complicated. I talked to my friend at TI, he will be looking for the person to talk to about this. But I think I already found the answer... I found a French company Microlight3d they make maskless table top stepper just like the one we are trying to build. ASML also builds production level ones BLA BLA BLA: Because I missed the meeting I do not know much about what you discussed or decided. Can we keep notes to see how we all contribute to the project and who are missing can follow what was discussed? I do not want to bring many new actions to your routine because we are all busy and I completely understand it. So, I will start building a system at my work space, too. ***We will need some help on the software side for the x-y-z axis controls, sensor readout and alignment.*** I am a bit tired and might have missed some important things. Talk to you next week. Dilek Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? Hagen SANKOWSKI 6 A?ustos 2021 Cuma saat 12:37 tarihinde yazd?: > Hello List! > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC. > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at > > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. > > Regards, > > Hagen. > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 9 17:50:01 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2021 16:50:01 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2942128.YbBvsmnCpy@harvey> Dear Dilek Thanks so much for your contribution! I will start extending the wiki page on Redmine with a BOM Table where we can gather the list of required components, so that we can get an overview of the expected final price of the device and so that we can all order the same components. For obvious reasons it will be easier to cooperate when we all have the same setup. Cheers David On Monday, August 9, 2021 2:53:13 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Hello, > > I was not able to join you today although I had some info gathered for the > meeting. I did some research on how to proceed with this. Read some > articles and checked company websites. > > WHAT I DID: > I started with checking how the stepper works and what parts will be > required. I checked the MLE (Maskless Exposure Systems) producers. > Working principles of the DLP and DMDs which forms the DLP. > > IMPORTANT PART IS HERE: > Big Components that should make the stepper are > DLP > Software > Objective column with a cooling set > A stage with x y z control, aligner > Light sources > UV and IR light sources and sensors > These are the basic parts I see. You can specialize the equipment from > there. There are details into these which are of course much more > complicated. > > I talked to my friend at TI, he will be looking for the person to talk to > about this. But I think I already found the answer... > > I found a French company Microlight3d they make maskless table top stepper > just like the one we are trying to build. ASML also builds production level > ones > > BLA BLA BLA: > Because I missed the meeting I do not know much about what you discussed or > decided. Can we keep notes to see how we all contribute to the project and > who are missing can follow what was discussed? > > I do not want to bring many new actions to your routine because we are all > busy and I completely understand it. > > So, I will start building a system at my work space, too. > > ***We will need some help on the software side for the x-y-z axis controls, > sensor readout and alignment.*** > > I am a bit tired and might have missed some important things. > > Talk to you next week. > > > Dilek > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > Hagen SANKOWSKI 6 A?ustos 2021 Cuma saat 12:37 tarihinde yazd?: > > Hello List! > > > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > > > 2021-08-08 @ 18:00 UTC. > > > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at > > > > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > > > We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hagen. > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 22:25:01 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 22:25:01 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Libresilicon infrastructure down Message-ID: <62a762e6-c479-f557-d3f3-ef6e1667c106@gmail.com> Hello David, Sorry for the spam. It seems that Libresilicon infrastructure is down. All machines in 62.192.20.131-136 are unresponsive and unpingable. Also, I get "Nameserver c.ns.buddyns.com. reports: No such host dns.lanceville.cn". Regards, Ferenc From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 11 01:06:34 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 00:06:34 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Libresilicon infrastructure down In-Reply-To: <62a762e6-c479-f557-d3f3-ef6e1667c106@gmail.com> References: <62a762e6-c479-f557-d3f3-ef6e1667c106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2571381.If64EItbIe@harvey> Hi Yes. The COLT datacenter in general, where our server is located, was offline the entire day. So much about backup systems, one of the many reasons besides becoming too expensive, for me to relocate the server to another colocation soon. Cheers David On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 9:25:01 PM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > Hello David, > > Sorry for the spam. It seems that Libresilicon infrastructure is down. > All machines in 62.192.20.131-136 are unresponsive and unpingable. Also, > I get "Nameserver c.ns.buddyns.com. reports: No such host > dns.lanceville.cn". > > Regards, > > Ferenc -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 11 21:51:09 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:51:09 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm Message-ID: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Hi Dilek, hi list Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day yesterday. The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was down. Now to the topic: I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV already has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's ok to be operated until 400nm. Here's the BOM: https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. Cheers David -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From trdilek at protonmail.com Wed Aug 11 21:59:10 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:59:10 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Message-ID: Checking it promptly. Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 11, 2021, 12:51, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi Dilek, hi list > Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day yesterday. > The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was down. > > Now to the topic: > I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV already > has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's ok to > be operated until 400nm. > > Here's the BOM: > https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki > > It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. > > Cheers > David > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trdilek at protonmail.com Fri Aug 13 09:03:33 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 07:03:33 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Message-ID: <65qveVB11qw0RJx3pI70oYHyfMLtftUEnphjDs5Zcytcng--ca7ATBf45liBXFMG3YA2bRTZ7HKhv6odfyOGQMiiSXSvmm-wDZxAShMaez4=@protonmail.com> Hi All, David, I see that you selected a greyscale PR for photolithography, it uses TMAH based developers I do not know the range of other developers it can make use of. Can we list them? This series of PR are foreign to me. I used Shipley, AZ etc. You must not buy and use TMAH based developers at home labs due to safety reasons it is extremely toxic! Second chemical I will beware of is HF in the same way in a home environment. Second, What is the reason for going for a grayscale PR and not a regular one? Third, The UV range depends on the PR we will be using, the smaller the wavelength, more precise will be the features if we can use the right optical system of course (De Broglies eqn.). Because I am new to the project please let me know why we decide don this set of PRs. As per UV range of the DLP once again this depends on the PRs to be used and because DLP works by reflection, you may loose power due to reflectance, absorption and other optical phenomena therefore I think we need to be as precise as possible with our selections. Let me point out: The rail system precision+ DLP resolution (not the pixel size) as an end result of multiple selections such as good focus etc+ PR thickness+ Development time + Light source wavelength + overlay reproducibility = approximately OUR RESOLUTION. With current selections are we sure we will be able to reproduce 50 um features and have a good overlay if we need a second layer alignment on top? Thank you, Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? David Lanzend?rfer 11 A?ustos 2021 ?ar?amba saat 12:51 tarihinde yazd?: > Hi Dilek, hi list > > Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day yesterday. > > The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was down. > > Now to the topic: > > I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV already > > has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's ok to > > be operated until 400nm. > > Here's the BOM: > > https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki > > It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. > > Cheers > > David > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > (")_(") > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Fri Aug 13 15:15:37 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 14:15:37 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: <65qveVB11qw0RJx3pI70oYHyfMLtftUEnphjDs5Zcytcng--ca7ATBf45liBXFMG3YA2bRTZ7HKhv6odfyOGQMiiSXSvmm-wDZxAShMaez4=@protonmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <65qveVB11qw0RJx3pI70oYHyfMLtftUEnphjDs5Zcytcng--ca7ATBf45liBXFMG3YA2bRTZ7HKhv6odfyOGQMiiSXSvmm-wDZxAShMaez4=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <1636315.ddTPd7Zv4H@harvey> Hi Dilek About the choice of the PR: I just went for one which has a sufficient energy absorption within the visible UV range still tolerated by the inexpensive DMD chip chosen. Now that you pointed out the issue with TMAH I realize that my choice of PR wasn't the best. Can you suggest alternatives which do not require super toxic and dangerous developers but still work within the specified UV range of 420nm - 450nm? I'm aware how dangerous TMAH is, it even etches silicon, which I observed myself while doing some tests for the ultra low tech process flow variant, where I used it to etch the trench isolation. The absorption wave length was basically the only criteria which led me to suggest this specific resists, but as I've said, if we could collect a list of alternative resists delivering sufficient results in the above mentioned range, we HAVE TO put it onto our wiki page as well. About the certainty of being able to reproduce 25 um (featuresize 50um -> lambda 25um): In order to be sure, we've got to build a prototype and test it :-) Cheers, David On Friday, August 13, 2021 8:03:33 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Hi All, David, > > I see that you selected a greyscale PR for photolithography, it uses TMAH > based developers I do not know the range of other developers it can make > use of. Can we list them? This series of PR are foreign to me. I used > Shipley, AZ etc. You must not buy and use TMAH based developers at home > labs due to safety reasons it is extremely toxic! Second chemical I will > beware of is HF in the same way in a home environment. > > Second, > What is the reason for going for a grayscale PR and not a regular one? > > Third, > The UV range depends on the PR we will be using, the smaller the wavelength, > more precise will be the features if we can use the right optical system of > course (De Broglies eqn.). Because I am new to the project please let me > know why we decide don this set of PRs. > > As per UV range of the DLP once again this depends on the PRs to be used and > because DLP works by reflection, you may loose power due to reflectance, > absorption and other optical phenomena therefore I think we need to be as > precise as possible with our selections. > > Let me point out: > The rail system precision+ DLP resolution (not the pixel size) > as an end result of multiple selections such as good focus etc+ PR > thickness+ Development time + Light source wavelength + overlay > reproducibility = approximately OUR RESOLUTION. > > With current selections are we sure we will be able to reproduce 50 um > features and have a good overlay if we need a second layer alignment on > top? > > Thank you, > > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > David Lanzend?rfer 11 A?ustos 2021 ?ar?amba saat 12:51 tarihinde yazd?: > > Hi Dilek, hi list > > > > Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day > > yesterday. > > > > The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was down. > > > > Now to the topic: > > > > I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV > > already > > > > has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's ok > > to > > > > be operated until 400nm. > > > > Here's the BOM: > > > > https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki > > > > It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. > > > > Cheers > > > > David > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------ > > > > (\__/) > > > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > > > (")_(") > > > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > > > signature to help him gain world domination -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From trdilek at protonmail.com Fri Aug 13 15:49:45 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 13:49:45 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: <1636315.ddTPd7Zv4H@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <65qveVB11qw0RJx3pI70oYHyfMLtftUEnphjDs5Zcytcng--ca7ATBf45liBXFMG3YA2bRTZ7HKhv6odfyOGQMiiSXSvmm-wDZxAShMaez4=@protonmail.com> <1636315.ddTPd7Zv4H@harvey> Message-ID: Good morning, Greyscale PR is not a good option overall. It is meant for a different process. We will go with regular resists AZ series probably due to their process being cheaper. We can look for others too. High contrast resists are better at giving vertical sidewall. AZ1512 1.2um thick positive 310-440 nm abs AZ9260 5-20 um thick positive 365-435 nm. But we do not need to state these at the moment do we? We can basically say that any PR absorbing in this range would be sufficient to work with. We are not adbertising products after all :) Semiconductor manufacturing chemicals are usually highly toxic to person and aquatic life. I see youtubers being very brave about their use without any fume hoods etc. I believe we will need to prepare a safety notice for people who are interested in the fieldnand have no idea what they are doing. You can not pour thess chems into the drain they need to be collected and sent to facilities for neutralization. Some cause cancer... Some can kill you with a drop. Thank you, Dilek Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 13, 2021, 6:15 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi Dilek > > About the choice of the PR: > I just went for one which has a sufficient energy absorption within the > visible UV range still tolerated by the inexpensive DMD chip chosen. > Now that you pointed out the issue with TMAH I realize that my choice of PR > wasn't the best. > Can you suggest alternatives which do not require super toxic and dangerous > developers but still work within the specified UV range of 420nm - 450nm? > I'm aware how dangerous TMAH is, it even etches silicon, which I observed > myself while doing some tests for the ultra low tech process flow variant, > where I used it to etch the trench isolation. > The absorption wave length was basically the only criteria which led me to > suggest this specific resists, but as I've said, if we could collect a list of > alternative resists delivering sufficient results in the above mentioned > range, we HAVE TO put it onto our wiki page as well. > > About the certainty of being able to reproduce 25 um (featuresize 50um -> > lambda 25um): > In order to be sure, we've got to build a prototype and test it :-) > > Cheers, > David > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 8:03:33 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: >> Hi All, David, >> >> I see that you selected a greyscale PR for photolithography, it uses TMAH >> based developers I do not know the range of other developers it can make >> use of. Can we list them? This series of PR are foreign to me. I used >> Shipley, AZ etc. You must not buy and use TMAH based developers at home >> labs due to safety reasons it is extremely toxic! Second chemical I will >> beware of is HF in the same way in a home environment. >> >> Second, >> What is the reason for going for a grayscale PR and not a regular one? >> >> Third, >> The UV range depends on the PR we will be using, the smaller the wavelength, >> more precise will be the features if we can use the right optical system of >> course (De Broglies eqn.). Because I am new to the project please let me >> know why we decide don this set of PRs. >> >> As per UV range of the DLP once again this depends on the PRs to be used and >> because DLP works by reflection, you may loose power due to reflectance, >> absorption and other optical phenomena therefore I think we need to be as >> precise as possible with our selections. >> >> Let me point out: >> The rail system precision+ DLP resolution (not the pixel size) >> as an end result of multiple selections such as good focus etc+ PR >> thickness+ Development time + Light source wavelength + overlay >> reproducibility = approximately OUR RESOLUTION. >> >> With current selections are we sure we will be able to reproduce 50 um >> features and have a good overlay if we need a second layer alignment on >> top? >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> >> David Lanzend?rfer 11 A?ustos 2021 ?ar?amba > saat 12:51 tarihinde yazd?: >> > Hi Dilek, hi list >> > >> > Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day >> > yesterday. >> > >> > The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was down. >> > >> > Now to the topic: >> > >> > I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV >> > already >> > >> > has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's ok >> > to >> > >> > be operated until 400nm. >> > >> > Here's the BOM: >> > >> > https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki >> > >> > It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. >> > >> > Cheers >> > >> > David >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ------------------------ >> > >> > (\__/) >> > >> > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. >> > >> > (")_(") >> > >> > Copy and paste Bunny into your >> > >> > signature to help him gain world domination > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Fri Aug 13 16:04:54 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:04:54 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <1636315.ddTPd7Zv4H@harvey> Message-ID: <2290283.iIyZvRftpx@harvey> Good morning Dilek ^^ Fantastic! Thanks so much! I will put those resists onto the wiki page as examples for resists to use, and will mention that we'd be glad about reports of results using alternative resists within that wave length range. And yes. I already had a discussion about the toxic chemical waste a while ago, where I made the usual joke that I'd follow "all the laws and regulations of the PRC", when I was told that I'd be in Portugal now and they'd have laws making it illegal to flush it down the toilet xD I already checked, where the collection centers are here in Portugal and what chemicals are actually legal to buy as a private citizen. Cheers, David On Friday, August 13, 2021 2:49:45 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Good morning, > > Greyscale PR is not a good option overall. It is meant for a different > process. We will go with regular resists AZ series probably due to their > process being cheaper. We can look for others too. High contrast resists > are better at giving vertical sidewall. > > AZ1512 1.2um thick positive 310-440 nm abs > AZ9260 5-20 um thick positive 365-435 nm. > > But we do not need to state these at the moment do we? We can basically say > that any PR absorbing in this range would be sufficient to work with. We > are not adbertising products after all :) > > Semiconductor manufacturing chemicals are usually highly toxic to person and > aquatic life. I see youtubers being very brave about their use without any > fume hoods etc. I believe we will need to prepare a safety notice for > people who are interested in the fieldnand have no idea what they are > doing. You can not pour thess chems into the drain they need to be > collected and sent to facilities for neutralization. Some cause cancer... > Some can kill you with a drop. > > Thank you, > > Dilek > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Aug 13, 2021, 6:15 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Hi Dilek > > > > About the choice of the PR: > > I just went for one which has a sufficient energy absorption within the > > visible UV range still tolerated by the inexpensive DMD chip chosen. > > Now that you pointed out the issue with TMAH I realize that my choice of > > PR > > wasn't the best. > > Can you suggest alternatives which do not require super toxic and > > dangerous > > developers but still work within the specified UV range of 420nm - 450nm? > > I'm aware how dangerous TMAH is, it even etches silicon, which I observed > > myself while doing some tests for the ultra low tech process flow variant, > > where I used it to etch the trench isolation. > > The absorption wave length was basically the only criteria which led me to > > suggest this specific resists, but as I've said, if we could collect a > > list of alternative resists delivering sufficient results in the above > > mentioned range, we HAVE TO put it onto our wiki page as well. > > > > About the certainty of being able to reproduce 25 um (featuresize 50um -> > > lambda 25um): > > In order to be sure, we've got to build a prototype and test it :-) > > > > Cheers, > > David > > > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 8:03:33 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > >> Hi All, David, > >> > >> I see that you selected a greyscale PR for photolithography, it uses TMAH > >> based developers I do not know the range of other developers it can make > >> use of. Can we list them? This series of PR are foreign to me. I used > >> Shipley, AZ etc. You must not buy and use TMAH based developers at home > >> labs due to safety reasons it is extremely toxic! Second chemical I will > >> beware of is HF in the same way in a home environment. > >> > >> Second, > >> What is the reason for going for a grayscale PR and not a regular one? > >> > >> Third, > >> The UV range depends on the PR we will be using, the smaller the > >> wavelength, more precise will be the features if we can use the right > >> optical system of course (De Broglies eqn.). Because I am new to the > >> project please let me know why we decide don this set of PRs. > >> > >> As per UV range of the DLP once again this depends on the PRs to be used > >> and because DLP works by reflection, you may loose power due to > >> reflectance, absorption and other optical phenomena therefore I think we > >> need to be as precise as possible with our selections. > >> > >> Let me point out: > >> The rail system precision+ DLP resolution (not the pixel size) > >> as an end result of multiple selections such as good focus etc+ PR > >> thickness+ Development time + Light source wavelength + overlay > >> reproducibility = approximately OUR RESOLUTION. > >> > >> With current selections are we sure we will be able to reproduce 50 um > >> features and have a good overlay if we need a second layer alignment on > >> top? > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >> > >> ??????? Original Message ??????? > >> > >> David Lanzend?rfer 11 A?ustos 2021 ?ar?amba > > > > saat 12:51 tarihinde yazd?: > >> > Hi Dilek, hi list > >> > > >> > Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day > >> > yesterday. > >> > > >> > The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was > >> > down. > >> > > >> > Now to the topic: > >> > > >> > I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV > >> > already > >> > > >> > has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's > >> > ok > >> > to > >> > > >> > be operated until 400nm. > >> > > >> > Here's the BOM: > >> > > >> > https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki > >> > > >> > It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. > >> > > >> > Cheers > >> > > >> > David > >> > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --- > >> > ------------------------ > >> > > >> > (\__/) > >> > > >> > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > >> > > >> > (")_(") > >> > > >> > Copy and paste Bunny into your > >> > > >> > signature to help him gain world domination > > > > -- > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > (")_(") > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > signature to help him gain world domination -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 21:41:27 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:41:27 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Uncertainty: DMD chips and 420nm In-Reply-To: <2290283.iIyZvRftpx@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <1636315.ddTPd7Zv4H@harvey> <2290283.iIyZvRftpx@harvey> Message-ID: <6031e7f8-fb3b-f385-5cbd-d599dc27217c@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, HPR504 [1] (used back in HKUST) is usable for this purpose, as well as any other resists for g-line (436nm) exposure. As for developing HPR504, the HKUST recipes mention FHD-5 [2], which is essentially TMAH. [1] https://people.rit.edu/deeemc/reference_13/photoresists/HPR-504 Data Sheet.pdf [2] http://mfz140.ust.hk/msds/FHD-5 MSDS.pdf Regards, Ferenc On 13/08/2021 16:04, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Good morning Dilek ^^ > > Fantastic! Thanks so much! > I will put those resists onto the wiki page as examples for resists to use, > and will mention that we'd be glad about reports of results using alternative > resists within that wave length range. > > And yes. I already had a discussion about the toxic chemical waste a while > ago, where I made the usual joke that I'd follow "all the laws and regulations > of the PRC", when I was told that I'd be in Portugal now and they'd have laws > making it illegal to flush it down the toilet xD > > I already checked, where the collection centers are here in Portugal and what > chemicals are actually legal to buy as a private citizen. > > Cheers, > David > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 2:49:45 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: >> Good morning, >> >> Greyscale PR is not a good option overall. It is meant for a different >> process. We will go with regular resists AZ series probably due to their >> process being cheaper. We can look for others too. High contrast resists >> are better at giving vertical sidewall. >> >> AZ1512 1.2um thick positive 310-440 nm abs >> AZ9260 5-20 um thick positive 365-435 nm. >> >> But we do not need to state these at the moment do we? We can basically say >> that any PR absorbing in this range would be sufficient to work with. We >> are not adbertising products after all :) >> >> Semiconductor manufacturing chemicals are usually highly toxic to person and >> aquatic life. I see youtubers being very brave about their use without any >> fume hoods etc. I believe we will need to prepare a safety notice for >> people who are interested in the fieldnand have no idea what they are >> doing. You can not pour thess chems into the drain they need to be >> collected and sent to facilities for neutralization. Some cause cancer... >> Some can kill you with a drop. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Dilek >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> >> On Aug 13, 2021, 6:15 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: >>> Hi Dilek >>> >>> About the choice of the PR: >>> I just went for one which has a sufficient energy absorption within the >>> visible UV range still tolerated by the inexpensive DMD chip chosen. >>> Now that you pointed out the issue with TMAH I realize that my choice of >>> PR >>> wasn't the best. >>> Can you suggest alternatives which do not require super toxic and >>> dangerous >>> developers but still work within the specified UV range of 420nm - 450nm? >>> I'm aware how dangerous TMAH is, it even etches silicon, which I observed >>> myself while doing some tests for the ultra low tech process flow variant, >>> where I used it to etch the trench isolation. >>> The absorption wave length was basically the only criteria which led me to >>> suggest this specific resists, but as I've said, if we could collect a >>> list of alternative resists delivering sufficient results in the above >>> mentioned range, we HAVE TO put it onto our wiki page as well. >>> >>> About the certainty of being able to reproduce 25 um (featuresize 50um -> >>> lambda 25um): >>> In order to be sure, we've got to build a prototype and test it :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> David >>> >>> On Friday, August 13, 2021 8:03:33 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: >>>> Hi All, David, >>>> >>>> I see that you selected a greyscale PR for photolithography, it uses TMAH >>>> based developers I do not know the range of other developers it can make >>>> use of. Can we list them? This series of PR are foreign to me. I used >>>> Shipley, AZ etc. You must not buy and use TMAH based developers at home >>>> labs due to safety reasons it is extremely toxic! Second chemical I will >>>> beware of is HF in the same way in a home environment. >>>> >>>> Second, >>>> What is the reason for going for a grayscale PR and not a regular one? >>>> >>>> Third, >>>> The UV range depends on the PR we will be using, the smaller the >>>> wavelength, more precise will be the features if we can use the right >>>> optical system of course (De Broglies eqn.). Because I am new to the >>>> project please let me know why we decide don this set of PRs. >>>> >>>> As per UV range of the DLP once again this depends on the PRs to be used >>>> and because DLP works by reflection, you may loose power due to >>>> reflectance, absorption and other optical phenomena therefore I think we >>>> need to be as precise as possible with our selections. >>>> >>>> Let me point out: >>>> The rail system precision+ DLP resolution (not the pixel size) >>>> as an end result of multiple selections such as good focus etc+ PR >>>> thickness+ Development time + Light source wavelength + overlay >>>> reproducibility = approximately OUR RESOLUTION. >>>> >>>> With current selections are we sure we will be able to reproduce 50 um >>>> features and have a good overlay if we need a second layer alignment on >>>> top? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> >>>> David Lanzend?rfer 11 A?ustos 2021 ?ar?amba >>> saat 12:51 tarihinde yazd?: >>>>> Hi Dilek, hi list >>>>> >>>>> Sorry again about the downtime of the infrastructure during the day >>>>> yesterday. >>>>> >>>>> The infrastructure of the data center I've got my rack server in was >>>>> down. >>>>> >>>>> Now to the topic: >>>>> >>>>> I've started writing down the BOM and I'm not sure whether 420 nm UV >>>>> already >>>>> >>>>> has too much energy, although the data sheet of the DMD chip says it's >>>>> ok >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> be operated until 400nm. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the BOM: >>>>> >>>>> https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki >>>>> >>>>> It would be cool to get feedback on that from Texas Instruments. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> ------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> (\__/) >>>>> >>>>> (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. >>>>> >>>>> (")_(") >>>>> >>>>> Copy and paste Bunny into your >>>>> >>>>> signature to help him gain world domination >>> -- >>> (\__/) >>> (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. >>> (")_(") >>> Copy and paste Bunny into your >>> signature to help him gain world domination > From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Aug 14 10:44:11 2021 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 09:44:11 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sat Aug 14 14:13:07 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 13:13:07 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Message-ID: <2118064.XZpVvBvTt2@harvey> Hi Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also be scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, considering that the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) Cheers, lev On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 17:31:09 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 17:31:09 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <2118064.XZpVvBvTt2@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2118064.XZpVvBvTt2@harvey> Message-ID: <7270e47a-71ef-165e-d9a4-9b1edb127cff@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. Just spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve everything in the right way. < / rant > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus compound"). Any idea on solving this? Regards, Ferenc On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also be > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, considering that > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) > > Cheers, > lev > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg > From trdilek at protonmail.com Sat Aug 14 19:47:28 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 17:47:28 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <7270e47a-71ef-165e-d9a4-9b1edb127cff@gmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2118064.XZpVvBvTt2@harvey> <7270e47a-71ef-165e-d9a4-9b1edb127cff@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lets build a plasma etch system on the side then :) Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? Ferenc ?ger 14 A?ustos 2021 Cumartesi saat 08:31 tarihinde yazd?: > Hello Everyone, > > As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: > > http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ > > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 > > He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map > > in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. Just > > spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve > > everything in the right way. < / rant > > > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is > > also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the > > legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus > > compound"). Any idea on solving this? > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > > Hi > > > > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. > > > > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also be > > > > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, considering that > > > > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) > > > > Cheers, > > > > lev > > > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > > > wrote: > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sat Aug 14 19:56:05 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 18:56:05 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <7270e47a-71ef-165e-d9a4-9b1edb127cff@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> Where I just have been living for a long time laws are just there so that people can find ways around them, so yeah, besides potentially building a simple plasma etcher by using this magnetron sputter setup from Hackaday and running it in reverse, we might also try to find ways to buy those chemicals in diluted form and then turning it into a more concentrated form in our lab... hmm On Saturday, August 14, 2021 6:47:28 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Lets build a plasma etch system on the side then :) > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > Ferenc ?ger 14 A?ustos 2021 Cumartesi saat 08:31 tarihinde yazd?: > > Hello Everyone, > > > > As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: > > > > http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ > > > > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 > > > > He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map > > > > in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. Just > > > > spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve > > > > everything in the right way. < / rant > > > > > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is > > > > also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the > > > > legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus > > > > compound"). Any idea on solving this? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ferenc > > > > On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. > > > > > > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also > > > be > > > > > > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, considering > > > that > > > > > > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > lev > > > > > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson > > > Leighton > > > > > > wrote: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 15 00:29:30 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 23:29:30 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> Message-ID: <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> Hi all I found a way around the issue, without future issues with people potentially SWATing my garage later on: AZ 9260 can be developed with AZ 400K, which is "only" Potassium based, but not in any concentration which could go boom :-) https://redmine.libresilicon.com/projects/maskless-lithography/wiki/Wiki Cheers -lev On Saturday, August 14, 2021 6:56:05 PM WEST David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Where I just have been living for a long time laws are just there so that > people can find ways around them, so yeah, besides potentially building a > simple plasma etcher by using this magnetron sputter setup from Hackaday and > running it in reverse, we might also try to find ways to buy those > chemicals in diluted form and then turning it into a more concentrated form > in our lab... hmm > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 6:47:28 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > > Lets build a plasma etch system on the side then :) > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > Ferenc ?ger 14 A?ustos 2021 Cumartesi saat 08:31 > > tarihinde yazd?: > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > > > As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: > > > > > > http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ > > > > > > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 > > > > > > He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map > > > > > > in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. Just > > > > > > spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve > > > > > > everything in the right way. < / rant > > > > > > > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is > > > > > > also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the > > > > > > legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus > > > > > > compound"). Any idea on solving this? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ferenc > > > > > > On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. > > > > > > > > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also > > > > be > > > > > > > > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, > > > > considering > > > > that > > > > > > > > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > lev > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson > > > > Leighton > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg > > > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From trdilek at protonmail.com Sun Aug 15 01:16:01 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 23:16:01 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <7270e47a-71ef-165e-d9a4-9b1edb127cff@gmail.com> <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> Message-ID: Wow, no! Laws are laws especially these sensitive issues must be obeyed in my opinion. I would build a plasma etch system. Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 14, 2021, 10:56 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Where I just have been living for a long time laws are just there so that > people can find ways around them, so yeah, besides potentially building a > simple plasma etcher by using this magnetron sputter setup from Hackaday and > running it in reverse, we might also try to find ways to buy those chemicals > in diluted form and then turning it into a more concentrated form in our > lab... hmm > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 6:47:28 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: >> Lets build a plasma etch system on the side then :) >> >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> >> Ferenc ?ger 14 A?ustos 2021 Cumartesi saat 08:31 > tarihinde yazd?: >> > Hello Everyone, >> > >> > As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: >> > >> > http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ >> > >> > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 >> > >> > He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map >> > >> > in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. Just >> > >> > spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve >> > >> > everything in the right way. < / rant > >> > >> > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is >> > >> > also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the >> > >> > legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus >> > >> > compound"). Any idea on solving this? >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Ferenc >> > >> > On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: >> > > Hi >> > > >> > > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. >> > > >> > > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can also >> > > be >> > > >> > > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, considering >> > > that >> > > >> > > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > lev >> > > >> > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson >> > > Leighton >> > > >> > > wrote: >> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg >> > >> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list >> > >> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com >> > >> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Libresilicon-developers mailing list >> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com >> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 15 01:51:09 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 00:51:09 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> Message-ID: <7509397.5vxCuE1Bh4@harvey> Well. I guess I still haven't gotten used to the new reality of not living in China anymore, which is to a certain degree like the wild west. Haha But considering that they're also there introducing more and more environmental protection laws, I might as well go with the time and find ways to take a bit more care of the environment. On Sunday, August 15, 2021 12:16:01 AM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > Wow, no! > > Laws are laws especially these sensitive issues must be obeyed in my > opinion. > > I would build a plasma etch system. > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Aug 14, 2021, 10:56 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Where I just have been living for a long time laws are just there so that > > people can find ways around them, so yeah, besides potentially building a > > simple plasma etcher by using this magnetron sputter setup from Hackaday > > and running it in reverse, we might also try to find ways to buy those > > chemicals in diluted form and then turning it into a more concentrated > > form in our lab... hmm > > > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 6:47:28 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > >> Lets build a plasma etch system on the side then :) > >> > >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >> > >> ??????? Original Message ??????? > >> > >> Ferenc ?ger 14 A?ustos 2021 Cumartesi saat 08:31 > > > > tarihinde yazd?: > >> > Hello Everyone, > >> > > >> > As for poly-Si etching our never-ending problem came across again: > >> > > >> > http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/ > >> > > >> > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R1148 > >> > > >> > He is probably not an European guy... And Europe aims to be on the map > >> > > >> > in terms of scientific progress... Never mind, we need no amateurs. > >> > Just > >> > > >> > spill a ton of public money onto our for-profit firms, they will solve > >> > > >> > everything in the right way. < / rant > > >> > > >> > The problem is nitric acid, that is visible outright. The n-dopant is > >> > > >> > also likely no-go (I did not find explicitly, but knowing how the > >> > > >> > legislators think, they may crap their pants on the word "phosphorus > >> > > >> > compound"). Any idea on solving this? > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Ferenc > >> > > >> > On 14/08/2021 14:13, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > >> > > Hi > >> > > > >> > > Yes. That's what I'm planning to do as well. > >> > > > >> > > The idea just was to design a bit more compact stepper, which can > >> > > also > >> > > be > >> > > > >> > > scaled up and sold for professional industrial environments, > >> > > considering > >> > > that > >> > > > >> > > the furnace costs 3200 USD and I've got to get the cash back in :-) > >> > > > >> > > Cheers, > >> > > > >> > > lev > >> > > > >> > > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 9:44:11 AM WEST Luke Kenneth Casson > >> > > Leighton > >> > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg > >> > > >> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > >> > > >> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > >> > > >> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Libresilicon-developers mailing list > >> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > >> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > -- > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > (")_(") > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > signature to help him gain world domination -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 13:55:14 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:55:14 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <1780898.VUqvqjZsGT@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> Message-ID: On August 14, 2021 10:29:30 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: >Hi all >I found a way around the issue, without future issues with people >potentially >SWATing my garage later on: or raiding it because they read this mailing list and figure your garage is an easy target to obtain chemicals required for criminal activities. l. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 15 17:56:46 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:56:46 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> Message-ID: <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen in China LOL On Sunday, August 15, 2021 12:55:14 PM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 14, 2021 10:29:30 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >Hi all > >I found a way around the issue, without future issues with people > >potentially > > >SWATing my garage later on: > or raiding it because they read this mailing list and figure your garage is > an easy target to obtain chemicals required for criminal activities. > > l. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 15 18:02:40 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:02:40 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Meeting today: Legal lithography Message-ID: <16625445.ZPrVR2jFhs@harvey> Howdy So I suggest, now that we came to the conclusion that I should really follow the law in a broader sense when it comes to developers and resists, and etching, I decided to go Sam's route and use AZ 4210 with KOH as developer and run a magnetron design from Hack A Day in reverse for the etching process. Lets discuss that :-) -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 18:16:35 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:16:35 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:56 PM David Lanzend?rfer < leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote: > Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen in China > LOL > :) perhaps researching and developing some physical security measures might be a good idea. again (sigh) you will likely run into "security through stupidit...^Wobscurity" in industry-standard measures ("if people don't know what security we put in place they couldn't possibly work it out"... rriiiight) so may actually have to ask a friendly physical pen-tester "how the hell do i secure these chemicals and make sure that the relevant authorities are immediately notified, and what evidence will they require?" in the UK you have to have a gun safe and a firearms license, even for a black powder muzzle-loading musket, now [despite the fact that 50% of injuries during the English Civil War were actually down to people using their musket as a club, i.e. not firing the damn things at all because they ran out of black powder]. stupidity of regulations aside, actually either stopping someone entirely from successfully stealing these chemicals, or providing evidence (security camera footage) *that passes muster in a court of law* would make any authorities a lot less unhappy if they actually ever have to be called. camera footage you have to be exceptionally careful about (and, also, not have cameras that are so expensive they actually end up being stolen to order!) because "processing" of the data (including post processing such as MPEG compression, scaling etc.) can be considered "tampering with evidence" (sigh) and a case thrown out despite it being blindingly obvious whodunnit. l. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eegerferenc at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:03:13 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:03:13 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> Message-ID: <762b2bed-62e5-d243-2aa3-98b01da498ee@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, Unfortunately, provision of dangerous goods not to be stolen is just one of the usual concerns. The other ones being malicious usage and improper disposal. I remember a case in Hungary in the early 2000s when iron chloride (!!?!?) was pushed to be banned outright, explicitly referring to homemade PCBs as the reason. It was argued that hobbyists and cost-sparing SMEs dump the used solution into the sewers. They backed off only after realizing that this would only trigger a shift to "boosted" copper etchants like HCl and hydrogen peroxide, causing more harm. Also, the problem of malicious use does not only relevant to the thief, but to the purported user as well. If someone walks in and says "I need a small amount of HF or organophosphorus or organoboron compound for DYI semiconductor construction (currently sounds very... yapp.) and I promise i don't lie about the purpose", who knows that one does not want simply get rid of one's own wife? Or just a new and still unknown way to produce drugs? These are the questions why authorities are going mad on the idea to give poisonous or explosive or chemically useful substances to anyone in general. Not to mention the current paranoia of security agencies that everyone who breaths is a terrorist suspect unless the opposite is proven by ten successive polygraph tests and a brain dissection. Regards, Ferenc On 15/08/2021 18:16, lkcl wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:56 PM David Lanzend?rfer > > wrote: > > Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen > in China LOL > > > :) > > perhaps researching and developing some physical security measures might > be a good idea.? again (sigh) you will likely run into "security through > stupidit...^Wobscurity" in industry-standard measures ("if people don't > know what security we put in place they couldn't possibly work it out"... > rriiiight) so may actually have to ask a friendly physical pen-tester > "how the hell do i secure these chemicals and make sure that the > relevant authorities are immediately notified, and what evidence > will they require?" > > in the UK you have to have a gun safe and a firearms license, even for > a black powder muzzle-loading musket, now [despite the fact that > 50% of injuries during the English Civil War were actually down to > people using their musket as a club, i.e. not firing the damn things > at all because they ran out of black powder]. > > stupidity of regulations aside, actually either stopping someone entirely > from successfully stealing these chemicals, or providing evidence > (security > camera footage) *that passes muster in a court of law* would make any > authorities a lot less unhappy if they actually ever have to be called. > > camera footage you have to be exceptionally careful about (and, also, > not have cameras that are so expensive they actually end up being > stolen to order!) because "processing" of the data (including post > processing such as MPEG compression, scaling etc.) can be considered > "tampering with evidence" (sigh) and a case thrown out despite it > being blindingly obvious whodunnit. > > l. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trdilek at protonmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:20:26 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <762b2bed-62e5-d243-2aa3-98b01da498ee@gmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> <762b2bed-62e5-d243-2aa3-98b01da498ee@gmail.com> Message-ID: In US a teacher ruined the life of a kid because he built a timer at home as his homework. She took it to the upper management and called cops on the little kid because she thought it would be used to make a bomb... Being a maker is a hard path and you will meet logical and idiotic people on the road. I hope logical ones more than the others. Engineers, makers have a completely different midnset than the others. We focus on the improvements and they focus on how to ruin them. ? Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 15, 2021, 10:03 AM, Ferenc ?ger wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Unfortunately, provision of dangerous goods not to be stolen is just one of the usual concerns. The other ones being malicious usage and improper disposal. > > I remember a case in Hungary in the early 2000s when iron chloride (!!?!?) was pushed to be banned outright, explicitly referring to homemade PCBs as the reason. It was argued that hobbyists and cost-sparing SMEs dump the used solution into the sewers. They backed off only after realizing that this would only trigger a shift to "boosted" copper etchants like HCl and hydrogen peroxide, causing more harm. > > Also, the problem of malicious use does not only relevant to the thief, but to the purported user as well. If someone walks in and says "I need a small amount of HF or organophosphorus or organoboron compound for DYI semiconductor construction (currently sounds very... yapp.) and I promise i don't lie about the purpose", who knows that one does not want simply get rid of one's own wife? Or just a new and still unknown way to produce drugs? These are the questions why authorities are going mad on the idea to give poisonous or explosive or chemically useful substances to anyone in general. Not to mention the current paranoia of security agencies that everyone who breaths is a terrorist suspect unless the opposite is proven by ten successive polygraph tests and a brain dissection. > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 15/08/2021 18:16, lkcl wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:56 PM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: >> >>> Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen in China LOL >> >> :) >> >> perhaps researching and developing some physical security measures might >> be a good idea. again (sigh) you will likely run into "security through >> stupidit...^Wobscurity" in industry-standard measures ("if people don't >> know what security we put in place they couldn't possibly work it out"... >> rriiiight) so may actually have to ask a friendly physical pen-tester >> "how the hell do i secure these chemicals and make sure that the >> relevant authorities are immediately notified, and what evidence >> will they require?" >> >> in the UK you have to have a gun safe and a firearms license, even for >> a black powder muzzle-loading musket, now [despite the fact that >> 50% of injuries during the English Civil War were actually down to >> people using their musket as a club, i.e. not firing the damn things >> at all because they ran out of black powder]. >> >> stupidity of regulations aside, actually either stopping someone entirely >> from successfully stealing these chemicals, or providing evidence (security >> camera footage) *that passes muster in a court of law* would make any >> authorities a lot less unhappy if they actually ever have to be called. >> >> camera footage you have to be exceptionally careful about (and, also, >> not have cameras that are so expensive they actually end up being >> stolen to order!) because "processing" of the data (including post >> processing such as MPEG compression, scaling etc.) can be considered >> "tampering with evidence" (sigh) and a case thrown out despite it >> being blindingly obvious whodunnit. >> >> l. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eegerferenc at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 21:29:53 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 21:29:53 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Meeting today: Legal lithography In-Reply-To: <16625445.ZPrVR2jFhs@harvey> References: <16625445.ZPrVR2jFhs@harvey> Message-ID: <195710ae-51d7-f5d8-e387-f9d4dc1a5f0b@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, Meeting minutes of the Mumble session: - Setting up a mediawiki instance to store process flows and semiconductor manufacturing-related know-how. Also functions as a knowledge base for the users of LS50U - Chemical safety precautions shall be written for LS50U (product liability...). - Use polysilicon gate for LS50U. Solution to exclude ionic contamination during gate oxide growth and deposit poly without silane gas: purchase wafers with gate-oxide and poly predeposited and pattern that. Possibly order and stock them. Ref: Sam Zeloof's second IC - Use the first process layer (diffusion) patterning to create alignment marks for subsequent exposures (first layer needs not to be aligned to anything) - Solution for CVD deposition of field oxide: use a resident layer of patterned and hardbaked photoresist as the dielectric layer. Ref: Sam Zeloof's second IC - Structured milestone plan has to be established. First priority: get the patterning work, test it with resist and developer. Actual process steps (diffusion, etching, etc...) come after that. Regards, Ferenc On 15/08/2021 18:02, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Howdy > So I suggest, now that we came to the conclusion that I should really > follow the law in a broader sense when it comes to developers and resists, > and etching, I decided to go Sam's route and use AZ 4210 with KOH as developer > and run a magnetron design from Hack A Day in reverse for the etching process. > > Lets discuss that :-) > From trdilek at protonmail.com Sun Aug 15 21:38:37 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:38:37 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <2621493.z13T1vzV5r@harvey> <2195074.M9YBlW2AoN@harvey> <762b2bed-62e5-d243-2aa3-98b01da498ee@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Mohamed_clock_incident Did I send this? Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 15, 2021, 10:20 AM, Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > In US a teacher ruined the life of a kid because he built a timer at home as his homework. She took it to the upper management and called cops on the little kid because she thought it would be used to make a bomb... > > Being a maker is a hard path and you will meet logical and idiotic people on the road. I hope logical ones more than the others. > > Engineers, makers have a completely different midnset than the others. We focus on the improvements and they focus on how to ruin them. > > ? > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Aug 15, 2021, 10:03 AM, Ferenc ?ger wrote: > >> Hello Everyone, >> >> Unfortunately, provision of dangerous goods not to be stolen is just one of the usual concerns. The other ones being malicious usage and improper disposal. >> >> I remember a case in Hungary in the early 2000s when iron chloride (!!?!?) was pushed to be banned outright, explicitly referring to homemade PCBs as the reason. It was argued that hobbyists and cost-sparing SMEs dump the used solution into the sewers. They backed off only after realizing that this would only trigger a shift to "boosted" copper etchants like HCl and hydrogen peroxide, causing more harm. >> >> Also, the problem of malicious use does not only relevant to the thief, but to the purported user as well. If someone walks in and says "I need a small amount of HF or organophosphorus or organoboron compound for DYI semiconductor construction (currently sounds very... yapp.) and I promise i don't lie about the purpose", who knows that one does not want simply get rid of one's own wife? Or just a new and still unknown way to produce drugs? These are the questions why authorities are going mad on the idea to give poisonous or explosive or chemically useful substances to anyone in general. Not to mention the current paranoia of security agencies that everyone who breaths is a terrorist suspect unless the opposite is proven by ten successive polygraph tests and a brain dissection. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ferenc >> >> On 15/08/2021 18:16, lkcl wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:56 PM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: >>> >>>> Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen in China LOL >>> >>> :) >>> >>> perhaps researching and developing some physical security measures might >>> be a good idea. again (sigh) you will likely run into "security through >>> stupidit...^Wobscurity" in industry-standard measures ("if people don't >>> know what security we put in place they couldn't possibly work it out"... >>> rriiiight) so may actually have to ask a friendly physical pen-tester >>> "how the hell do i secure these chemicals and make sure that the >>> relevant authorities are immediately notified, and what evidence >>> will they require?" >>> >>> in the UK you have to have a gun safe and a firearms license, even for >>> a black powder muzzle-loading musket, now [despite the fact that >>> 50% of injuries during the English Civil War were actually down to >>> people using their musket as a club, i.e. not firing the damn things >>> at all because they ran out of black powder]. >>> >>> stupidity of regulations aside, actually either stopping someone entirely >>> from successfully stealing these chemicals, or providing evidence (security >>> camera footage) *that passes muster in a court of law* would make any >>> authorities a lot less unhappy if they actually ever have to be called. >>> >>> camera footage you have to be exceptionally careful about (and, also, >>> not have cameras that are so expensive they actually end up being >>> stolen to order!) because "processing" of the data (including post >>> processing such as MPEG compression, scaling etc.) can be considered >>> "tampering with evidence" (sigh) and a case thrown out despite it >>> being blindingly obvious whodunnit. >>> >>> l. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 15 21:52:52 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 20:52:52 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <2777779.lAu6hYi1tj@harvey> I did hear about a case a while ago in which a Sikh (Hindu sect) was wrongfully arrested and designated to be sent to Guantanamo, but I can't find up the specific news report right now for pulling it up. Sikh traditionally have a beard and wear a turban, and someone who apparently couldn't distinguish between his Indian dialect and Arab reported him. In some ironic twist of faith the current situation might be actually really good for Islamists because right now everyone is paranoid about COVID and forgets about extremist Islamic terror LOL Cheers -lev On Sunday, August 15, 2021 8:38:37 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Mohamed_clock_incident > > Did I send this? > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Aug 15, 2021, 10:20 AM, Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > > In US a teacher ruined the life of a kid because he built a timer at home > > as his homework. She took it to the upper management and called cops on > > the little kid because she thought it would be used to make a bomb... > > > > Being a maker is a hard path and you will meet logical and idiotic people > > on the road. I hope logical ones more than the others. > > > > Engineers, makers have a completely different midnset than the others. We > > focus on the improvements and they focus on how to ruin them. > > -> > ? > > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > On Aug 15, 2021, 10:03 AM, Ferenc ?ger wrote: > >> Hello Everyone, > >> > >> Unfortunately, provision of dangerous goods not to be stolen is just one > >> of the usual concerns. The other ones being malicious usage and improper > >> disposal. > >> > >> I remember a case in Hungary in the early 2000s when iron chloride > >> (!!?!?) was pushed to be banned outright, explicitly referring to > >> homemade PCBs as the reason. It was argued that hobbyists and > >> cost-sparing SMEs dump the used solution into the sewers. They backed > >> off only after realizing that this would only trigger a shift to > >> "boosted" copper etchants like HCl and hydrogen peroxide, causing more > >> harm. > >> > >> Also, the problem of malicious use does not only relevant to the thief, > >> but to the purported user as well. If someone walks in and says "I need > >> a small amount of HF or organophosphorus or organoboron compound for DYI > >> semiconductor construction (currently sounds very... yapp.) and I > >> promise i don't lie about the purpose", who knows that one does not want > >> simply get rid of one's own wife? Or just a new and still unknown way to > >> produce drugs? These are the questions why authorities are going mad on > >> the idea to give poisonous or explosive or chemically useful substances > >> to anyone in general. Not to mention the current paranoia of security > >> agencies that everyone who breaths is a terrorist suspect unless the > >> opposite is proven by ten successive polygraph tests and a brain > >> dissection. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ferenc > >> > >> On 15/08/2021 18:16, lkcl wrote: > >>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:56 PM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > >>>> Hmm... Good point... I mean THAT's also a thing which can happen in > >>>> China LOL>>>> > >>> :) > >>> > >>> perhaps researching and developing some physical security measures might > >>> be a good idea. again (sigh) you will likely run into "security through > >>> stupidit...^Wobscurity" in industry-standard measures ("if people don't > >>> know what security we put in place they couldn't possibly work it > >>> out"... > >>> rriiiight) so may actually have to ask a friendly physical pen-tester > >>> "how the hell do i secure these chemicals and make sure that the > >>> relevant authorities are immediately notified, and what evidence > >>> will they require?" > >>> > >>> in the UK you have to have a gun safe and a firearms license, even for > >>> a black powder muzzle-loading musket, now [despite the fact that > >>> 50% of injuries during the English Civil War were actually down to > >>> people using their musket as a club, i.e. not firing the damn things > >>> at all because they ran out of black powder]. > >>> > >>> stupidity of regulations aside, actually either stopping someone > >>> entirely > >>> from successfully stealing these chemicals, or providing evidence > >>> (security > >>> camera footage) *that passes muster in a court of law* would make any > >>> authorities a lot less unhappy if they actually ever have to be called. > >>> > >>> camera footage you have to be exceptionally careful about (and, also, > >>> not have cameras that are so expensive they actually end up being > >>> stolen to order!) because "processing" of the data (including post > >>> processing such as MPEG compression, scaling etc.) can be considered > >>> "tampering with evidence" (sigh) and a case thrown out despite it > >>> being blindingly obvious whodunnit. > >>> > >>> l. -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 23:08:23 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 21:08:23 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <2777779.lAu6hYi1tj@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> <2777779.lAu6hYi1tj@harvey> Message-ID: On August 15, 2021 7:52:52 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >In some ironic twist of faith the current situation might be actually >really >good for Islamists because right now everyone is paranoid about COVID >and >forgets about extremist Islamic terror LOL dis-eases don't care what your beliefs are: maybe the extremists will realise we're all human after all, eh? l. From trdilek at protonmail.com Mon Aug 16 00:44:09 2021 From: trdilek at protonmail.com (Dilek Isik Akcakaya) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 22:44:09 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> <2777779.lAu6hYi1tj@harvey> Message-ID: I understand your sensitive and islamophobia however please be reminded that all populations be it european, chinese, american, indian, etc have extremists. So confining this into a small population is funny. And most of you guys are globally traveling people who have seen the good and bads of this world I hope. In my perspective you can not associate any kind of terrorism with a religion because they are all based on the well being of humanity and living a joyful, happy, united life with other beings and nature. Religions have been used to drive less lucky people in terms of socio economic status since centuries including in Europe. People from same religion killed each other for years because someone above them was not satisfied with what they had in terms of wealth, soils etc. Today, in this global world we are more and more connected and the only way to resolve this is to bring real education and economic empowerement to less fortunate be it christian, muslim, jew, atheist, deist or satanist from whatever background they are. Like you said we are all human no matter what we believe in and we all seek love, food and dignity. Unifying is a better approach especially for us scientists as we are all highly educated individuals who should lead the world to be better and we are responsible for future generations. Let's be a bit more responsible with our words and how we use them to unite and not separate. As Mevlana said: Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshipper, lover of leaving ? it doesn't matter, Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vow a hundred times, Come, come again, come Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (Rumi) -------- Original Message -------- On Aug 15, 2021, 2:08 PM, lkcl < luke.leighton at gmail.com> wrote: > On August 15, 2021 7:52:52 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >> >>In some ironic twist of faith the current situation might be actually >>really >>good for Islamists because right now everyone is paranoid about COVID >>and >>forgets about extremist Islamic terror LOL > > dis-eases don't care what your beliefs are: maybe the extremists will realise we're all human after all, eh? > > l. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 16 01:01:07 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 00:01:07 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> Message-ID: <1678550.8F3voYsutV@harvey> Yeah. Agreed. I mean the whole topic anyway went off rails kind of. It's better we don't talk about politics on here, although with western governments intruding in our innovation by putting rocks in our way with unbeneficial legislation this was bound to happen. We have many members here on the list, ranging from Pakistan, over Iran to Israel, as well as the People's Republic of China. Many different people with different backgrounds and different believes. Politics is probably the worst show stopper in projects and teams when trying to get stuff done, so I suggest we avoid it in the future to the best of our abilities. Cheers -lev On Sunday, August 15, 2021 11:44:09 PM WEST Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > I understand your sensitive and islamophobia however please be reminded that > all populations be it european, chinese, american, indian, etc have > extremists. So confining this into a small population is funny. > > And most of you guys are globally traveling people who have seen the good > and bads of this world I hope. > > In my perspective you can not associate any kind of terrorism with a > religion because they are all based on the well being of humanity and > living a joyful, happy, united life with other beings and nature. > > Religions have been used to drive less lucky people in terms of socio > economic status since centuries including in Europe. People from same > religion killed each other for years because someone above them was not > satisfied with what they had in terms of wealth, soils etc. > > Today, in this global world we are more and more connected and the only way > to resolve this is to bring real education and economic empowerement to > less fortunate be it christian, muslim, jew, atheist, deist or satanist > from whatever background they are. > > Like you said we are all human no matter what we believe in and we all seek > love, food and dignity. Unifying is a better approach especially for us > scientists as we are all highly educated individuals who should lead the > world to be better and we are responsible for future generations. Let's be > a bit more responsible with our words and how we use them to unite and not > separate. > > As Mevlana said: > > Come, come, whoever you are. > Wanderer, worshipper, lover of leaving ? it doesn't matter, > Ours is not a caravan of despair. > Come, even if you have broken your vow a hundred times, > Come, come again, come > > Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (Rumi) > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Aug 15, 2021, 2:08 PM, lkcl < luke.leighton at gmail.com> wrote: > > On August 15, 2021 7:52:52 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >>In some ironic twist of faith the current situation might be actually > >>really > >>good for Islamists because right now everyone is paranoid about COVID > >>and > >>forgets about extremist Islamic terror LOL > >> > > dis-eases don't care what your beliefs are: maybe the extremists will > > realise we're all human after all, eh? > > > > l. -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:05:39 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 23:05:39 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <6yT9itOEfxe-LS4AUdcMtRvH6ax8eX3dhrpmOw088xNfCiUwC9BlgVr1aqSnyZFRKGo-K3dDdyvhlnFI_wfeyHdGmVXEA0pRXpNGLpER5K0=@protonmail.com> <2777779.lAu6hYi1tj@harvey> Message-ID: <52230E54-E9FC-4310-9406-56985B2F14F4@gmail.com> On August 15, 2021 10:44:09 PM UTC, Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: >I understand your sensitive and islamophobia not at all. whatever islamophobia exists in the world i certainly do not associate it with myself in any way shape or form or by way of pronouns, verbs, adjectives, nouns, thoughts or energy patterns. to be explicit instead of using indirect irony: i said that perhaps the extremist narrow views held by some would melt away or be seen to be utterly irrelevant by those same extremists, given that global rapid distribution of viruses affect every one - every human -regardless of their beliefs. the extremists would have witnessed their families and friends die just as easy as the people they perceive as being "problematic". thus perhaps they would, one might hope, have learned the valuable lesson and perspective that you described so well. and now for something completely different. we now return to our usual topic of silicon development. l. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 16 01:21:36 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 00:21:36 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <52230E54-E9FC-4310-9406-56985B2F14F4@gmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <52230E54-E9FC-4310-9406-56985B2F14F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6624788.pW2nErjtvj@harvey> Thank you, very much. Now lets get back to being productive and being a cat which catches mice, as Deng Xiaoping would say :-) Cheers -lev On Monday, August 16, 2021 12:05:39 AM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 15, 2021 10:44:09 PM UTC, Dilek Isik Akcakaya wrote: > >I understand your sensitive and islamophobia > > not at all. whatever islamophobia exists in the world i certainly do not > associate it with myself in any way shape or form or by way of pronouns, > verbs, adjectives, nouns, thoughts or energy patterns. > > to be explicit instead of using indirect irony: i said that perhaps the > extremist narrow views held by some would melt away or be seen to be > utterly irrelevant by those same extremists, given that global rapid > distribution of viruses affect every one - every human -regardless of their > beliefs. the extremists would have witnessed their families and friends > die just as easy as the people they perceive as being "problematic". > > thus perhaps they would, one might hope, have learned the valuable lesson > and perspective that you described so well. > > and now for something completely different. we now return to our usual topic > of silicon development. > > l. -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:26:29 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 01:26:29 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <6624788.pW2nErjtvj@harvey> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <52230E54-E9FC-4310-9406-56985B2F14F4@gmail.com> <6624788.pW2nErjtvj@harvey> Message-ID: <4252f551-45ef-aed4-449c-bf89b94597bb@gmail.com> "lets get back to being productive": agreed. BTW, this mailing list has a world-readable, persistent HTML archive. Regards, Ferenc On 16/08/2021 01:21, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Thank you, very much. > Now lets get back to being productive and being a cat which catches mice, > as Deng Xiaoping would say :-) > > Cheers > -lev > > On Monday, August 16, 2021 12:05:39 AM WEST lkcl wrote: >> On August 15, 2021 10:44:09 PM UTC, Dilek Isik Akcakaya > wrote: >>> I understand your sensitive and islamophobia >> not at all. whatever islamophobia exists in the world i certainly do not >> associate it with myself in any way shape or form or by way of pronouns, >> verbs, adjectives, nouns, thoughts or energy patterns. >> >> to be explicit instead of using indirect irony: i said that perhaps the >> extremist narrow views held by some would melt away or be seen to be >> utterly irrelevant by those same extremists, given that global rapid >> distribution of viruses affect every one - every human -regardless of their >> beliefs. the extremists would have witnessed their families and friends >> die just as easy as the people they perceive as being "problematic". >> >> thus perhaps they would, one might hope, have learned the valuable lesson >> and perspective that you described so well. >> >> and now for something completely different. we now return to our usual topic >> of silicon development. >> >> l. > From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 16 01:35:50 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 00:35:50 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] sam zeloof home-made IC In-Reply-To: <4252f551-45ef-aed4-449c-bf89b94597bb@gmail.com> References: <1941496.jZlcGCJ58l@harvey> <6624788.pW2nErjtvj@harvey> <4252f551-45ef-aed4-449c-bf89b94597bb@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5948066.RfbrBzvOOW@harvey> Haha. Yeah. Good point! Everyone should be aware, that this mailing list is public. I just figured I underline the end of this political debate with a Maoist quote as a cherry on top xD On Monday, August 16, 2021 12:26:29 AM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > "lets get back to being productive": agreed. BTW, this mailing list has > a world-readable, persistent HTML archive. > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 16/08/2021 01:21, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Thank you, very much. > > Now lets get back to being productive and being a cat which catches mice, > > as Deng Xiaoping would say :-) > > > > Cheers > > -lev > > > > On Monday, August 16, 2021 12:05:39 AM WEST lkcl wrote: > >> On August 15, 2021 10:44:09 PM UTC, Dilek Isik Akcakaya > > > > wrote: > >>> I understand your sensitive and islamophobia > >> > >> not at all. whatever islamophobia exists in the world i certainly do not > >> associate it with myself in any way shape or form or by way of pronouns, > >> verbs, adjectives, nouns, thoughts or energy patterns. > >> > >> to be explicit instead of using indirect irony: i said that perhaps the > >> extremist narrow views held by some would melt away or be seen to be > >> utterly irrelevant by those same extremists, given that global rapid > >> distribution of viruses affect every one - every human -regardless of > >> their > >> beliefs. the extremists would have witnessed their families and friends > >> die just as easy as the people they perceive as being "problematic". > >> > >> thus perhaps they would, one might hope, have learned the valuable lesson > >> and perspective that you described so well. > >> > >> and now for something completely different. we now return to our usual > >> topic of silicon development. > >> > >> l. > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Fri Aug 20 06:46:47 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:46:47 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wikimedia Message-ID: <232779183.KLc229LeMA@harvey> Hi I'm done setting up the Wiki: https://wiki.libresilicon.com Cheers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:26:02 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:26:02 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <232779183.KLc229LeMA@harvey> References: <232779183.KLc229LeMA@harvey> Message-ID: <02364609-14db-fe54-b944-0839360198a0@gmail.com> Hello David, Fast and elegant, well done. What about linking it on the main website alongside Redmine (and possibly from Redmine startpage), so it becomes discoverable? BTW, the Redmine startpage also needs some cleanup (still full of Github links, 9pm HKT, ...) Regards, Ferenc On 20/08/2021 06:46, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi > I'm done setting up the Wiki: > https://wiki.libresilicon.com > > Cheers > From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sat Aug 21 21:22:15 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 20:22:15 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct Message-ID: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> Hi I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki. Cheers -lev -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 23:48:28 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 23:48:28 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> Message-ID: Hello David, I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI slave device, it is fine. Regards, Ferenc On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Hi > I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like > the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct > has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when > it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, > so political debates aren't welcome. > If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki. > > Cheers > -lev > From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 22 20:46:55 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:46:55 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Meeting Message-ID: <1867379.C9YdlYhqTo@harvey> Hi I kind of one in a life time was able to sleep without getting woken up by nightmares or my hurting leg and slept 12 hours straight, just woke up. Sorry for missing the meeting. Also: Hagen is in holiday anyway. Cheers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 23 00:38:28 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 23:38:28 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> Message-ID: <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is. Cheers On Saturday, August 21, 2021 10:48:28 PM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > Hello David, > > I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we > have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as > well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the > horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and > "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can > talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI > slave device, it is fine. > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Hi > > I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like > > the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of > > conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be > > neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open > > source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. > > If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki. > > > > Cheers > > -lev > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From christoph.maier at ieee.org Mon Aug 23 10:32:26 2021 From: christoph.maier at ieee.org (Christoph Maier) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 10:32:26 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > OK > The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions > about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. > In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are > attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. > Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, > but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would > be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. > Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must > not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't > matter how well ment it is. > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > Cheers tatzelbrumm > On Saturday, August 21, 2021 10:48:28 PM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > > Hello David, > > > > I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we > > have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as > > well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the > > horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and > > "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can > > talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI > > slave device, it is fine. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ferenc > > > > On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > > Hi > > > I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like > > > the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of > > > conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be > > > neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open > > > source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. > > > If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki. > > > > > > Cheers > > > -lev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From staf at fibraservi.eu Mon Aug 23 11:16:28 2021 From: staf at fibraservi.eu (Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:16:28 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> Message-ID: <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer > wrote: >> OK >> The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions >> about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. >> In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are >> attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. >> Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, >> but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would >> be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. >> Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must >> not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't >> matter how well ment it is. >> > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf. -- Chips want to be free. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_0x47D10429DCCF96DC.asc Type: application/pgp-keys Size: 1684 bytes Desc: OpenPGP public key URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From christoph.maier at ieee.org Mon Aug 23 11:29:40 2021 From: christoph.maier at ieee.org (Christoph Maier) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:29:40 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) wrote: > > Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > Staf. > Now I'm really glad that I asked. tatzelbrumm > -- > Chips want to be free. > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 23 17:52:41 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 16:52:41 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> Message-ID: <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> Awesome! Lets use it! Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) > > wrote: > > Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > > > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > > > > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > Staf. > > Now I'm really glad that I asked. > > tatzelbrumm > > > -- > > Chips want to be free. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers * -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From christoph.maier at ieee.org Mon Aug 23 19:53:42 2021 From: christoph.maier at ieee.org (Christoph Maier) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:53:42 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> Message-ID: Would the answer to the question: "What is the most effective pentesting device?" be considered a Political Statement? tatzelbrumm On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:52 PM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Awesome! > Lets use it! > > Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have > to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the > LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. > > On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) > > > > wrote: > > > Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > > > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > > > > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > > > > > > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > > > > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > > Staf. > > > > Now I'm really glad that I asked. > > > > tatzelbrumm > > > > > -- > > > Chips want to be free. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > * > > -- > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > (")_(") > Copy and paste Bunny into your > signature to help him gain world domination > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From leviathan at libresilicon.com Mon Aug 23 20:05:26 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:05:26 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> Message-ID: <5973936.jAhK7oPKEj@harvey> Nah. That's a simple technical question. If someone wants to find "sexist innuendos" in something, they'll always find it, that's exactly why I wanna keep insane activists out. BTW: The most effective pen testing device depends on the situation. It can range from a crow bar, to a lock picking set, to some packs of C4 with ignition capsules or just a simple spectrum analyzer in case you're analyzing chatter in the ether :-) For IT purposes, MetaSploit is usually the way to go, and just good old nmap ;-) Cheers -lev On Monday, August 23, 2021 6:53:42 PM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: > Would the answer to the question: > "What is the most effective pentesting device?" > be considered a Political Statement? > > tatzelbrumm > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:52 PM David Lanzend?rfer > > wrote: > > Awesome! > > Lets use it! > > > > Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have > > to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the > > LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. > > > > On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > > > > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as > > > > > opposed > > > > > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > > > > > > > > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > > > > > > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > > > Staf. > > > > > > Now I'm really glad that I asked. > > > > > > tatzelbrumm > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chips want to be free. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > * > > > > -- > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. > > (")_(") > > Copy and paste Bunny into your > > signature to help him gain world domination > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From eegerferenc at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 00:53:03 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 00:53:03 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> Message-ID: Hello list, "we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.": That's why highly visible projects usually form themselves into a legal entity and trademark their name and symbols... Regards, Ferenc On 23/08/2021 17:52, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > Awesome! > Lets use it! > > Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have > to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the > LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. > > On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) >> >> wrote: >>> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: >>>> Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed >>>> to well made) statement of political activism :-P >>>> >>>> Ah well. Whatever it takes ... >>> Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: >>> https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC >>> Staf. >> Now I'm really glad that I asked. >> >> tatzelbrumm >> >>> -- >>> Chips want to be free. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list >>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com >>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers >> _______________________________________________ >> Libresilicon-developers mailing list >> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com >> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > * > From leviathan at libresilicon.com Tue Aug 24 04:11:50 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 03:11:50 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1940634.nLdrZyyO2z@harvey> Message-ID: <1708967.OEiZQj4cBo@harvey> Hmm... VERY good point On Monday, August 23, 2021 11:53:03 PM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > Hello list, > > "we also have > to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the > LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.": > That's why highly visible projects usually form themselves into a legal > entity and trademark their name and symbols... > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 23/08/2021 17:52, David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Awesome! > > Lets use it! > > > > Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have > > to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the > > LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. > > > > On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) > >> > >> wrote: > >>> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: > >>>> Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > >>>> to well made) statement of political activism :-P > >>>> > >>>> Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > >>> > >>> Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > >>> https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > >>> Staf. > >> > >> Now I'm really glad that I asked. > >> > >> tatzelbrumm > >> > >>> -- > >>> Chips want to be free. > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Libresilicon-developers mailing list > >>> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > >>> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Libresilicon-developers mailing list > >> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > >> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > > > * > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From johann-tobias-aaron-raphael.schaeg at tu-ilmenau.de Tue Aug 24 15:01:59 2021 From: johann-tobias-aaron-raphael.schaeg at tu-ilmenau.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Johann-Tobias_Aaron_Raphael_Sch=C3=A4g?=) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 15:01:59 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2208021.aUpVn4ek5O@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> Message-ID: <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> > Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): > >> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 >> at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer >> wrote: OK >> The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that >> questions >> about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. >> In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are >> attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. >> Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, >> but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would >> be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. >> Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must >> not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it >> doesn't >> matter how well ment it is. >> >> Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed >> to well made) statement of political activism :-P >> >> Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzend?rfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Tue Aug 24 22:16:46 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 21:16:46 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> Message-ID: <2342544.o15PTOUDlE@harvey> The goal of having a set of guide lines is to keep this project free of pointless distracting debates, which aren't part of the topic of making open silicon without back doors from intelligence agencies. I think that as soon as we're going to make progress, this will be something, we WILL have to fend of, so we better prepare sooner than later, because experience shows that "dividi et imperam" is a common tactics used those days in the age of informational warfare to slow down and neutralize potentially dangerous groups... and a group developing the means to decentralize the manufacturing and close all potential back doors for mass surveillance, is certainly on the list of the five edged war factory :-) Cheers -lev On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Sch?g wrote: > > Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): > >> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 > >> at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer > >> wrote: OK > >> The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that > >> questions > >> about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. > >> In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are > >> attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. > >> Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, > >> but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would > >> be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. > >> Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must > >> not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it > >> doesn't > >> matter how well ment it is. > >> > >> Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > >> to well made) statement of political activism :-P > >> > >> Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought > Lanzend?rfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on > community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The > call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made > people annoyed. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 00:26:23 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 23:26:23 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> Message-ID: <4161951.1v0zriLgIS@harvey> I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and why roads already were built in a time when there were no formal governments paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being able to conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be abolished. But that's not the platform for that either :-) On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Sch?g wrote: > > Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): > >> Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 > >> at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer > >> wrote: OK > >> The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that > >> questions > >> about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. > >> In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are > >> attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. > >> Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, > >> but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would > >> be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. > >> Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must > >> not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it > >> doesn't > >> matter how well ment it is. > >> > >> Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > >> to well made) statement of political activism :-P > >> > >> Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought > Lanzend?rfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on > community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The > call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made > people annoyed. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From johann-tobias-aaron-raphael.schaeg at tu-ilmenau.de Wed Aug 25 00:58:15 2021 From: johann-tobias-aaron-raphael.schaeg at tu-ilmenau.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Johann-Tobias_Aaron_Raphael_Sch=C3=A4g?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 00:58:15 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <4161951.1v0zriLgIS@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <2498d794-ab74-d13d-31ad-83efba618051@fibraservi.eu> <6b9c53a967c62be61236782477206896@tu-ilmenau.de> <4161951.1v0zriLgIS@harvey> Message-ID: To prevent a misscommunication. I am in favor of a CoC and against https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC in particular. Am 2021-08-25 00:26, schrieb David Lanzend?rfer: > I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and > why > roads already were built in a time when there were no formal > governments > paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being > able to > conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be > abolished. > > But that's not the platform for that either :-) > > On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael > Sch?g > wrote: Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): Op > 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 > at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer > wrote: OK > The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that > questions > about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. > In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are > attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. > Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, > but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would > be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. > Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must > not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it > doesn't > matter how well ment it is. > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzend?rfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 01:07:00 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 00:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <4161951.1v0zriLgIS@harvey> Message-ID: <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> Well. I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it... So I vote for this NCoC On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 11:58:15 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Sch?g wrote: > To prevent a misscommunication. I am in favor of a CoC and against > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC in particular. > > Am 2021-08-25 00:26, schrieb David Lanzend?rfer: > > I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and > > why > > roads already were built in a time when there were no formal > > governments > > paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being > > able to > > conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be > > abolished. > > > > But that's not the platform for that either :-) > > > > On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael > > Sch?g > > wrote: Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): Op > > 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 > > at 12:38 AM David Lanzend?rfer > > wrote: OK > > The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that > > questions > > about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. > > In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are > > attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. > > Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, > > but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would > > be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. > > Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must > > not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it > > doesn't > > matter how well ment it is. > > > > Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed > > to well made) statement of political activism :-P > > > > Ah well. Whatever it takes ... > > Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: > > https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC > > I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought > Lanzend?rfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on > community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The > call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made > people annoyed. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 16:11:12 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:11:12 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <4161951.1v0zriLgIS@harvey> <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> Message-ID: <4127D75D-3B1D-4F2A-9075-D8F9CF7D1A6A@gmail.com> On August 24, 2021 11:07:00 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: >Well. >I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it... i took a look, it seems to be a (amusing but relevant) anti-backlash reaction to the extraordinarily damaging blinkered toxic contributor covenant. the issue with "anti-anything" is unfortunately the focus on the "anything" bit. i do like that it says "we assume everyone is adults" although this could be misconstrued as patronising, i am confident that people who understand the intent will get through that. the Libre-SOC Charter is at its heart utterly simple: * Always do good * Never do harm * the code applies 100% of the time * Everyone knows the Code. this again assumes "everyone is Adults" without actually spelling that out (because Adults don't *need* it spelled out). it also assumes that everyone knows the difference between "good" and "harm" AGAIN WITHOUT SPELLING THAT OUT OR INSULTING PEOPLE by smashing them in the face with an ultra-toxic, patronising and self-sabotaging list of divisive self-defeating behaviours and characteristics, which, by definition, are always going to be incomplete. by being so profoundly simple and yet defining the Charter in terms of "good" and "harm" it is extraordinarily flexible i.e. can be constantly analysed and adaptive. you *know* when someone does (or does not do) or writes something that harms the project. not because it was one of the f*****g stupid toxic proscribed behaviours, but because of the adverse impact the action (or inaction) had. example: a case could be made that the recent discussion which triggered the demand for a CoC was BENEFICIAL to the project. that although it irritated some people it actually covered quite important uncomfortable topics that people were nervous even to discuss, which could risk people being imprisoned or fined if they had not thought about the issues. [due to Asperger's i have no such fear] just because you feel UNCOMFORTABLE does NOT equate to "The Project Has Been Harmed". this is the risk of the stupid toxic CoCs: i cannot tell you how many times some dickheaded morons have judged me by their stupid proscribed list of behaviours, instead of seeing me as a human being. you can tell i am pissed off by such shortsighted judgemental behaviour, effectively abuse: it makes me both angry and sad at the same time. in short i advocate that you consider thinking very carefully about a Charter and CoC. anti-this and anti-that statements will come back to haunt you, in short order. l. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 16:24:08 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:24:08 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <4127D75D-3B1D-4F2A-9075-D8F9CF7D1A6A@gmail.com> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> <4127D75D-3B1D-4F2A-9075-D8F9CF7D1A6A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Hmm. This gave me a lot to think about. Maybe just adapting the heavy handed CCP approach and just banning anything which might cause a problem isn't the right way to go after all... Hmm... I mean, if someone wants to smear this project, they can always find something trying to curate content doesn't help anyway, because experience shows that they then just invent stuff if needed. I mean, anyone with common sense will understand that a group with a multitude of members has a diverse range of opinions of which none are representative of the project goal itself. Not that 2021 has been the year in which humanity would have really proven to have a broadly present common sense, but still. Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list? On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 3:11:12 PM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 24, 2021 11:07:00 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >Well. > >I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it... > > i took a look, it seems to be a (amusing but relevant) anti-backlash > reaction to the extraordinarily damaging blinkered toxic contributor > covenant. the issue with "anti-anything" is unfortunately the focus on the > "anything" bit. > > i do like that it says "we assume everyone is adults" although this could be > misconstrued as patronising, i am confident that people who understand the > intent will get through that. > > the Libre-SOC Charter is at its heart utterly simple: > > * Always do good > * Never do harm > * the code applies 100% of the time > * Everyone knows the Code. > > this again assumes "everyone is Adults" without actually spelling that out > (because Adults don't *need* it spelled out). > > it also assumes that everyone knows the difference between "good" and "harm" > AGAIN WITHOUT SPELLING THAT OUT OR INSULTING PEOPLE by smashing them in the > face with an ultra-toxic, patronising and self-sabotaging list of divisive > self-defeating behaviours and characteristics, which, by definition, are > always going to be incomplete. > > by being so profoundly simple and yet defining the Charter in terms of > "good" and "harm" it is extraordinarily flexible i.e. can be constantly > analysed and adaptive. > > you *know* when someone does (or does not do) or writes something that harms > the project. > > not because it was one of the f*****g stupid toxic proscribed behaviours, > but because of the adverse impact the action (or inaction) had. > > example: a case could be made that the recent discussion which triggered the > demand for a CoC was BENEFICIAL to the project. > > that although it irritated some people it actually covered quite important > uncomfortable topics that people were nervous even to discuss, which could > risk people being imprisoned or fined if they had not thought about the > issues. [due to Asperger's i have no such fear] > > just because you feel UNCOMFORTABLE does NOT equate to "The Project Has Been > Harmed". > > this is the risk of the stupid toxic CoCs: i cannot tell you how many times > some dickheaded morons have judged me by their stupid proscribed list of > behaviours, instead of seeing me as a human being. you can tell i am > pissed off by such shortsighted judgemental behaviour, effectively abuse: > it makes me both angry and sad at the same time. > > in short i advocate that you consider thinking very carefully about a > Charter and CoC. anti-this and anti-that statements will come back to > haunt you, in short order. > > l. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From christoph.maier at ieee.org Wed Aug 25 16:44:27 2021 From: christoph.maier at ieee.org (Christoph Maier) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:44:27 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> <4127D75D-3B1D-4F2A-9075-D8F9CF7D1A6A@gmail.com> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:24 PM David Lanzend?rfer wrote: > > Hmm. This gave me a lot to think about. > Maybe just adapting the heavy handed CCP approach and just banning anything > which might cause a problem isn't the right way to go after all... Hmm... FWIW, the CCP's heave handed approach IS their Code of Conduct they force down everyone's throat. Stay Calm And Carry On ... tatzelbrumm From luke.leighton at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 17:01:56 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:01:56 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827280.QXs03ZAa1a@harvey> <4127D75D-3B1D-4F2A-9075-D8F9CF7D1A6A@gmail.com> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Message-ID: On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: >Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting >political >debates on this mailing list? what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed topics, too? a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as well as "waste time" (more "harm") however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer embarrassment. thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a proscribed list of topics and behaviours. this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way. bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out. NCoC without a [N]CoC :) l. (2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist 2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 17:12:50 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:12:50 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Message-ID: <3999049.IM980ct1Pq@harvey> Haha Yeah. That's exactly the kind of insane political activism I wanna avoid getting on here. So don't worry, no one will resort to name calling and banning you on here. I mean it's just a reflection of the insanity which has become western politics nowadays and has been sweeping through all the governments. Everyone who diverges from a certain party line, and doesn't comply to certain Newspeak rules is suddenly labeled all kinds of names under the sky. If you combine everything my haters say about me... it's insane... some people managed to accuse me of being an All-night-Yazi AND a Commie in the SAME breath. (BTW: I'm an Anarcho Capitalist/Libertarian LOL) As long as you don't try to take my liberties away, I don't really care, I'm a huge friend of the NAP, just follow the NAP :-) Cheers -lev On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting > >political > >debates on this mailing list? > > what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed > topics, too? > > a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious > that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, > but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as > well as "waste time" (more "harm") > > however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction > if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, > importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the > contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer > embarrassment. > > thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in > the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a > proscribed list of topics and behaviours. > > this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, > whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) > "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own > judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was > going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way. > > bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because > people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so > forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all > its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out. > > NCoC without a [N]CoC :) > > l. > > > > (2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist > > 2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally > issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders > -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be > accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 17:24:46 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:24:46 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] New "CoC": The non agression principle (NAP) Message-ID: <4687821.K1lXumMWYT@harvey> Hi The new "Code of Conduct", in the sense of a Beijing style hammer drop and "crack down" but with Leviathan' characteristics xD THIS is the NAP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle Cheers -lev PS: Taxation is theft :-) -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Wed Aug 25 17:50:34 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:50:34 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Message-ID: <23973401.FWFXI8kb32@harvey> Haha, and yeah, we all know those kind of people who think they're the "resistance", and people who speak out against their authoritarian behaviour would be "facists"... Which in itself doesn't make any sense anyway... Also, if every major corporation and even the government agree with you, it's a good indicator, that you are NOT the resistance. But I'm not surprised that the EU cooperation went to the Wok?mon at FOSSIs, because you know, you've gotta represent'em all. xD Another reason why I'm not a fan of government funding, because it's always tied to some political bull, if someone wants to donate privately or semi-privately to a project which aims to one day actually produce semiconductors which do not allow agencies to stick their noses into our private conversations, in order to check on whether we only use words from the new revision of the INGSOC dictionary, I'm fine with it, otherwise I'm ok with not getting parts of the money the governments stole from EU citizens in the form of taxes. :-) On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting > >political > >debates on this mailing list? > > what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed > topics, too? > > a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious > that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, > but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as > well as "waste time" (more "harm") > > however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction > if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, > importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the > contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer > embarrassment. > > thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in > the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a > proscribed list of topics and behaviours. > > this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, > whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) > "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own > judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was > going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way. > > bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because > people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so > forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all > its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out. > > NCoC without a [N]CoC :) > > l. > > > > (2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist > > 2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally > issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders > -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be > accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 00:02:16 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:02:16 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> Message-ID: <3501887.5eIJxZ1xlI@harvey> I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to report this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the founder is a Libertarian and the project aims to build truly free silicon chips for helping to protect the privacy and personal liberty of its users... Hmm... Yes. I'm so terrible, because we all know that all those despots in history, like Stalin and Mussolini, were all about freedom of speech, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and were big fans of a free market. *eye roll* LOL On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting > >political > >debates on this mailing list? > > what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed > topics, too? > > a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious > that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, > but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as > well as "waste time" (more "harm") > > however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction > if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, > importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the > contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer > embarrassment. > > thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in > the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a > proscribed list of topics and behaviours. > > this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, > whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) > "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own > judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was > going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way. > > bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because > people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so > forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all > its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out. > > NCoC without a [N]CoC :) > > l. > > > > (2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist > > 2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally > issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders > -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be > accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From luke.leighton at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 01:39:12 2021 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:39:12 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <3501887.5eIJxZ1xlI@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <1827341.FOdEoADdfi@harvey> <3501887.5eIJxZ1xlI@harvey> Message-ID: <4D79F753-622E-46D8-837A-ADEF982CA683@gmail.com> On August 25, 2021 10:02:16 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: >I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to >report >this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the >founder is >a Libertarian i went to porcfest 2016 and met several fascinating people there. they explained that Anarcho-Capitalism is simply "No Arch" - No Hierarchy" and thus by definition to be a Libertarian is a declaration that YOU take DIRECT and full Sovereign responsibility for your life and your finances, and you neither expect nor allow anyone to take that. that's it. it's real simple. you will also be fascinated to know that i met Bob Podolski there, and he was the one who explained that Code to me. it is the Titanian's Code of Honour. note, "Code of Honour", not "Code of Conduct". l. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 01:49:15 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:49:15 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <4D79F753-622E-46D8-837A-ADEF982CA683@gmail.com> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <3501887.5eIJxZ1xlI@harvey> <4D79F753-622E-46D8-837A-ADEF982CA683@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> Awesome! Code of Honor really sounds nice :-) But yeah, you nailed my position pretty much: DIRECT and full responsibility On Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:39:12 AM WEST lkcl wrote: > On August 25, 2021 10:02:16 PM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" wrote: > >I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to > >report > >this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the > >founder is > >a Libertarian > > i went to porcfest 2016 and met several fascinating people there. they > explained that Anarcho-Capitalism is simply "No Arch" - No Hierarchy" and > thus by definition to be a Libertarian is a declaration that YOU take > DIRECT and full Sovereign responsibility for your life and your finances, > and you neither expect nor allow anyone to take that. > > that's it. it's real simple. > > you will also be fascinated to know that i met Bob Podolski there, and he > was the one who explained that Code to me. it is the Titanian's Code of > Honour. > > note, "Code of Honour", not "Code of Conduct". > > l. -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From LibreSilicon at jovi.net Thu Aug 26 15:39:14 2021 From: LibreSilicon at jovi.net (Devon Sean McCullough) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <3501887.5eIJxZ1xlI@harvey> <4D79F753-622E-46D8-837A-ADEF982CA683@gmail.com> <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> Message-ID: I can no longer resist tossing my 2? into this off-topic thread? Let us create to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat. ??????? Peace ??????????? --Devon P.S.? Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, ? I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 17:04:58 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:04:58 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> Message-ID: <17916167.xTFgYBZDGf@harvey> Hmm... Might be an idea... bringing back the good old times, when flamewars were carried out on Mailinglists and NOT on the platforms of social media BigTech giants which were putting content restrictions on you and were brainwashing you while you were using the tool. Here's LibreSilicon META: https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-meta Cheers -lev On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote: > I can no longer resist tossing my 2? into this off-topic thread? > Let us create > to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat. > > Peace > --Devon > > P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, ? > I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with > onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 17:15:44 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:15:44 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> Message-ID: <5953058.64S8SvUqBr@harvey> While we're on it, I could also create libresilicon-nonap, where all the crazy wok?mon can come and tell me how much of a terrible communist-all-night-yazi authoritarian-anarchist antisemite-zionist I am, for being a Libertarian AnCap... hmm LOL On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote: > I can no longer resist tossing my 2? into this off-topic thread? > Let us create > to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat. > > Peace > --Devon > > P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, ? > I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with > onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 17:31:05 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:31:05 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Code of conduct In-Reply-To: References: <2851687.azZGNaPrjC@harvey> <5050425.haqB4zn4UT@harvey> Message-ID: <2693941.RBtn5ylhef@harvey> So. I created the list, feel free to sign up, so we can discuss why I'm tolerant and where it stops for me. And we can discuss on why the NAP for me stops at the point where some shit head makes a Sieg Heil on me and tells me essentially that he endorses that some of my relatives didn't make it through WW2 and then everyone is surprised that at some point I loose it, after having been stalked by him, after having told him in no uncertain words, that I'm quarter Jewish and that I just return his desires to kill me. Or why I think that Taiwan and Hong Kong would actually be much better off under rule from Beijing, because many peski laws like the Safrole ban, high tobacco and alcohol taxes as well as smoking prohibited signs would go away. Also, the life for farmers would become much easier under Beijing rule, because unlike here in the EU, where there's a shit ton of regulations, after some petitioning (also from me), the Shenzhen government now lets use farmers some parts of the street for free, without licenses required and the money from the sales is tax free for the farmers, which makes China at least in this aspect even more Libertarian than the EU. Yes. Beijing might have a heavy handed approach on things, but at least they're not batshit insane like the wok?mon or German politicians like Klaus Lauterbach and Angela Merkel. We can go more into detail on stances like this now, on... *drums* LibreSilicon-META Cheers -lev On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote: > I can no longer resist tossing my 2? into this off-topic thread? > Let us create > to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat. > > Peace > --Devon > > P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, ? > I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with > onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From leviathan at libresilicon.com Thu Aug 26 21:22:58 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 20:22:58 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] The Meta-Mailinglist Message-ID: <2115592.x08hXrQJl2@harvey> Hello In order to keep the conversations on the developers mailinglist purely technical, I encourage you all to sign up to libresilicon-meta: https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-meta Please remember that as always the Non Aggression Principle is the law of the land, so if you absolutely MUST call someone an *ist and *phobe, please do so with measure and provide founded debatable arguments for your claim. Cheers -lev -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination From hsank at posteo.de Sat Aug 28 05:40:01 2021 From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 03:40:01 +0000 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC Message-ID: <10900547-c841-602e-753d-65c38a78d6a8@posteo.de> Hello List! This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC. Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at Port 64738, the Channel is IC. We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. Regards, Hagen. From eegerferenc at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 16:24:51 2021 From: eegerferenc at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ferenc_=c3=89ger?=) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:24:51 +0200 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC In-Reply-To: <10900547-c841-602e-753d-65c38a78d6a8@posteo.de> References: <10900547-c841-602e-753d-65c38a78d6a8@posteo.de> Message-ID: <60120d35-d29f-7712-e354-1b0feaf4a825@gmail.com> Hello All, I cannot participate today. I am involved in the cleanup of a technical failure at home. Regards, Ferenc On 28/08/2021 05:40, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote: > Hello List! > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC. > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. > > Regards, > Hagen. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers From leviathan at libresilicon.com Sun Aug 29 16:26:25 2021 From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:26:25 +0100 Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Announcement - Mumble session on Sunday 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC In-Reply-To: <60120d35-d29f-7712-e354-1b0feaf4a825@gmail.com> References: <10900547-c841-602e-753d-65c38a78d6a8@posteo.de> <60120d35-d29f-7712-e354-1b0feaf4a825@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3109418.rKxF7kn18H@harvey> Oh. Okay. I hope it's nothing dangerous... Good luck! Cheers David On Sunday, August 29, 2021 3:24:51 PM WEST Ferenc ?ger wrote: > Hello All, > > I cannot participate today. I am involved in the cleanup of a technical > failure at home. > > Regards, > > Ferenc > > On 28/08/2021 05:40, Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote: > > Hello List! > > > > This is our weekly announcement for the next Mumble Sessions on Sunday > > > > 2021-08-29 @ 18:00 UTC. > > > > Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at > > Port 64738, the Channel is IC. > > > > We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before. > > > > Regards, > > Hagen. > > _______________________________________________ > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination