From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Tue Feb  1 08:04:25 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 07:04:25 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Question: Robot arm design
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwCCWsd5jZLiyhCt4S_n16EnH-nkyM4VOnj8NGNDPj=Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <273937487.f50H87xMAc@harvey> <4725458.BeAtFcnlUg@harvey>
 <CAPweEDwCCWsd5jZLiyhCt4S_n16EnH-nkyM4VOnj8NGNDPj=Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16947654.Rxfnz3gc6I@harvey>

> > Ooops... good point.
> > Ouch. I guess I'd have to redo that robot design
> yyep - don't underestimate how long that takes.
I know, even when I start with an already existing design, it will take a
while, until I've got all the STL files the way I need them.
Back in Switzerland I've been involved in the RepRap project, and
made one or two contributions to all those cheap Chinese 3D
printers out there, of which one should arrive in a week or two :-)

> > from that guy, by adding some
> > gearing and different steppers...
> > Hmm... But still, do we wanna have a SCARA robot or an Articulated robot?
> i leave that to you and others, both are frickin cool as far as i'm
> concerned :)
I'm determined to build a robot arm and it ain't my first rodeo either ;-)
I think I will go for an articulated robot arm design, because it will make it
easier to adapt single manual loading equipment to be used with it.
Especially when we're eventually using this Bernoulli grip, Hagen is so fan
of now, we can basically automatize ANYTHING... in theory at least.

Cheers
-lev 


From luke.leighton at gmail.com  Tue Feb  1 13:58:04 2022
From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 12:58:04 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Question: Robot arm design
In-Reply-To: <16947654.Rxfnz3gc6I@harvey>
References: <273937487.f50H87xMAc@harvey> <4725458.BeAtFcnlUg@harvey>
 <CAPweEDwCCWsd5jZLiyhCt4S_n16EnH-nkyM4VOnj8NGNDPj=Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16947654.Rxfnz3gc6I@harvey>
Message-ID: <87D201C7-1A75-4E2D-AC52-186F87C5B00A@gmail.com>



On February 1, 2022 7:04:25 AM UTC, "David Lanzend?rfer" <leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:

>Back in Switzerland I've been involved in the RepRap project, and
>made one or two contributions to all those cheap Chinese 3D
>printers out there, of which one should arrive in a week or two :-)

my friend adam started with a cheapo USD 150 reprap design off of taobao. i helped him build it in his flat in HK, then went back to TW

6 months later, by the time he was done he had upgraded it with USD 1,000 of parts (at *china* prices), including a 2020 T-shaped Frame you could literally stand on, ball screws, a Flex3Drive, MGN12 linear rails, 24 v power for the steppers, and a 240v AC heat bed.

all done iteratively from a knock-off design that barely held together and yet he still uses the incredibly dangerous RAMPS 1.4, with fans blowing sideways under the steppers.

astounding :)

l.

From pg at futureware.at  Tue Feb  1 16:25:13 2022
From: pg at futureware.at (Philipp =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FChring?=)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 16:25:13 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Batch loading... robot arms??
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F202202011625.AA25130259@futureware.at>

Hello,

> Well, being cost-effective and reliable I'd suggest to use components
> similar to CD or DVD players. 

Wait a moment. CD/DVD burners are using heat and lasers to burn holes into flat wafers in a rather high precision way. Isn't that something we could use instead of photo-lithography+etching? It's just a hole at a time instead of a whole stepped pattern (or even a whole wafer), and we might have some challenge to get the laser to produce the patterns that we need, but wouldn't that be usable somehow?
Bluray writers should be able to produce 130nm x 150nm holes

Best regards,
Philipp G?hring

From hsank at posteo.de  Tue Feb  1 19:46:27 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Tue,  1 Feb 2022 18:46:27 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Batch loading... robot arms??
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F202202011625.AA25130259@futureware.at>
References: <WorldClient-F202202011625.AA25130259@futureware.at>
Message-ID: <cf6052f9-fc35-2bdd-9148-084a15f98a8c@posteo.de>



On 2/1/22 4:25 PM, Philipp G?hring wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>> Well, being cost-effective and reliable I'd suggest to use components
>> similar to CD or DVD players. 
> 
> Wait a moment. CD/DVD burners are using heat and lasers to burn holes into flat wafers in a rather high precision way. Isn't that something we could use instead of photo-lithography+etching? It's just a hole at a time instead of a whole stepped pattern (or even a whole wafer), and we might have some challenge to get the laser to produce the patterns that we need, but wouldn't that be usable somehow?
> Bluray writers should be able to produce 130nm x 150nm holes

I bet, we can cannibalise cheap laser-diodes from Blu-ray devices. I do
not really like this DRM-stuff anyway :-)

BTW, Blu-ray devices use 405 nm laser-diodes [0] - which is *precisely*
the H-line on ultraviolet photolithography [1]. The H-line is still
visible for the human eye and known as "black light".

Are we crazy, thinking about a laser beamer, which is a turntable
instead??? Doing Layouts not in a Cartesian but in a Polar coordinate
system??? Even spin-coating seems to work.

- Minutes later -

Okay, I got lost on youtube watching a lot of DIY stuff with Blu-ray
laser-diodes. Don't do this at home [2] :-o I guess a diode for Blu-ray
players "ought to be enough for anybody"..


Regards,
Hagen.

[0]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#/media/File:Comparison_CD_DVD_HDDVD_BD.svg
[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Spectrum_of_lithography_lights.PNG
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ77l23xwak

From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Feb  1 20:14:58 2022
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:14:58 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Batch loading... robot arms??
In-Reply-To: <cf6052f9-fc35-2bdd-9148-084a15f98a8c@posteo.de>
References: <WorldClient-F202202011625.AA25130259@futureware.at>
 <cf6052f9-fc35-2bdd-9148-084a15f98a8c@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDy8m0zkytUZRVUMwv1vq6WhJuJSuHFfRL64jVY72=2Jpg@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 6:46 PM Hagen SANKOWSKI <hsank at posteo.de> wrote:

> Are we crazy, thinking about a laser beamer, which is a turntable
> instead??? Doing Layouts not in a Cartesian but in a Polar coordinate
> system??? Even spin-coating seems to work.

the only things to watch out for:

1) at the furthest extent of reach is the accuracy high enough.

2) are the steppers accurate enough (i.e. don't use anything other
    than Trinamic)

3) at the higher accuracy is the holding force enough
    (for every extra doubling of the stepper accuracy you
     correspondingly lose double the holding force)

honestly i wouldn't consider it, but if you do, actually mount the
robotic arm, held upside-down, on a standard X-Y cartesian overhead
gantry.

then you get the best of both worlds.

* X is cartesian
* Y is cartesian
* Z is cartesian
* robot-rotate (about Z) is polar
* robot-extend-outwards (if you even have it) is polar
* robot-up is polar

l.

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Wed Feb  2 02:51:42 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 01:51:42 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Batch loading... robot arms??
In-Reply-To: <cf6052f9-fc35-2bdd-9148-084a15f98a8c@posteo.de>
References: <WorldClient-F202202011625.AA25130259@futureware.at>
 <cf6052f9-fc35-2bdd-9148-084a15f98a8c@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <3972753.4tY8Kafsu5@harvey>

Hi

> I bet, we can cannibalise cheap laser-diodes from Blu-ray devices. I do
> not really like this DRM-stuff anyway :-)
Haha! Good stance! ;-)

> BTW, Blu-ray devices use 405 nm laser-diodes [0] - which is *precisely*
> the H-line on ultraviolet photolithography [1]. The H-line is still
> visible for the human eye and known as "black light".
This is true
 
> Are we crazy, thinking about a laser beamer, which is a turntable
> instead??? Doing Layouts not in a Cartesian but in a Polar coordinate
> system??? Even spin-coating seems to work.
To the first question: Yes :-)

> - Minutes later -
> 
> Okay, I got lost on youtube watching a lot of DIY stuff with Blu-ray
> laser-diodes. Don't do this at home [2] :-o I guess a diode for Blu-ray
> players "ought to be enough for anybody"..
So, the reason why using a laser won't make you very happy, is the amount
of time it takes to expose one single layout due to the scanning time.
That's the reason why making masks with a laser scriber takes so long,
and also the reason E-Beam takes a very long time, which also has to scan
over the wafer.

Cheers
-lev


From hsank at posteo.de  Wed Feb  2 10:03:19 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Wed,  2 Feb 2022 09:03:19 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] DIY maskless stepper
Message-ID: <1694a641-46dd-c6e7-66b1-efa844242370@posteo.de>

Hello List.

I found some video clips from a Dutch (ex Philips) Engineer who builds
his own DIY maskless stepper :-)

Part 1: Optisc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w0Z2Y5vaAQ
Part 2: Mechanics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdRwiI6VLmk
Part 3: Electronics and Software https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebv_9cmLNqo

Part ?: Building a Small Cleanroom for Photolithography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkmVmsMUsJU

I think all videos here are a great source of inspiration.

Regards,
Hagen.

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Wed Feb  2 10:08:55 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 09:08:55 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] DIY maskless stepper
In-Reply-To: <1694a641-46dd-c6e7-66b1-efa844242370@posteo.de>
References: <1694a641-46dd-c6e7-66b1-efa844242370@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <3729724.eAboQEUVuf@harvey>

Hi
I already am subscribed to his channel for a while and I've already been
watching all those videos you've linked :-)
The problem is, that DMD chips from Texas Instruments are in general
darn expensive, especially the ones which survive 329 nm light and
don't die from overheating after a short while, or degenerate otherwise.

Cheers
-lev

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 9:03:19 AM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
> Hello List.
> 
> I found some video clips from a Dutch (ex Philips) Engineer who builds
> his own DIY maskless stepper :-)
> 
> Part 1: Optisc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w0Z2Y5vaAQ
> Part 2: Mechanics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdRwiI6VLmk
> Part 3: Electronics and Software https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebv_9cmLNqo
> 
> Part ?: Building a Small Cleanroom for Photolithography
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkmVmsMUsJU
> 
> I think all videos here are a great source of inspiration.
> 
> Regards,
> Hagen.
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers


-- 
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny.
(")_(")
Copy and paste Bunny into your
signature to help him gain world domination


From hsank at posteo.de  Thu Feb  3 19:12:52 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 18:12:52 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] =?utf-8?q?High-Temperature_!!_SOI_0=2E35u_C?=
 =?utf-8?q?MOS_process_as_Ransomware=3F=3F=3F?=
Message-ID: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>

Hello list!

A while ago I came across a very interessting high-temperature CMOS 
process on SOI for a client of mine.

https://www.ims.fraunhofer.de/en/Business_Units_and_Core_Competencies/High-Temperature-Electronics/Technologies/HT-SOI-CMOS.html

So, as I ask for manufacturing the manager told me, this process will be 
discontinued for economic reasons..

After some emails for and back offering help, publishing this process 
free and open, as Netscape did with their browser, I had a long call 
today with the higher management level.
Well, he does not seems to be quite convinced to doing so. From his 
perspective, this would cost him money to support us, publishing all 
material they have in a god feasible way, mainly to pay his employees 
role.

I guess, somewhere was the hope, another fab would licensed the stuff.. 
And he asked quite directly, what we would pay to get the process.
As I understood, the process fits exactly into their machine park and 
has some quirk in exotic material and fabrication steps. So it wouldn't 
be a one-by-one transfer into a the public.


My question is:
Can we deal with that as Ransomware? Setting up a world-wide campaign of 
open-source enthusiasts to buy this process? I do not know about which 
amount of money he is thinking...
I really know, if he put this process just into his safe, in a couple of 
years the process is dead for some reasons. All the developers are gone 
already, some old machines are already saled or scraped.
He can not earn a batch of money with this process anymore, otherwise 
this would be still in usage, so he just likes to sale the leftovers.

Can or should we offer, let's say, one or two million? Or not?
How much would it cost him to pay a couple of engineers to release the 
information to us and we'll do the rework and publishing?

Can we challenge this German Research institute in a way, it would give 
away the process "voluntarily"?
E.g., can we argue with "public money - public code"?


What do you think?? All creative thinking welcome :-)

Regards,
Hagen.
-- 
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin (1775)

From pg at futureware.at  Thu Feb  3 21:33:30 2022
From: pg at futureware.at (Philipp =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FChring?=)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 21:33:30 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] High-Temperature !! SOI 0.35u CMOS
 process as Ransomware???
In-Reply-To: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>
References: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F202202032133.AA33300265@futureware.at>

Hi,

If Fraunhofer does not want to run that process anymore themselves, the question is: Who wants to setup the factory for that process to run it? Will we do it in the Libresilicon shipping containers? Do you think that any Fab will be interested to take this process and implement it? Can we ask that fab to cover the costs?
Would it make sense to just publish the process without having a factory that wants to run the process? Even in the long run?
How much effort do you think it will be for the engineers to collect and hand over the documentation?
Which parts do you expect from the handover? Process documentation? Test-Wafers Designs? Measurement Data? Standard cell libraries? Any physical objects like actual Test-Wafers for comparison? Configuration files for various Software and machines? (What about the software licenses ...?)

Best regards,
Philipp

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Fri Feb  4 02:09:36 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2022 01:09:36 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] High-Temperature !! SOI 0.35u CMOS
 process as Ransomware???
In-Reply-To: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>
References: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <2649925.ZbM8O9YUTx@harvey>

The question is... how much do they wanna have for a process they're 
discontinuing?
Didn't the process make them enough to make break-even by now?
We should have some video conference with them, in which we discuss
what Libresilicon is about, and maybe instead of buying the IP, we
might even negotiate their longterm support out of it.
But maybe I'm just an optimist because I'm used to Chinese culture...
Haha...

Seriously. Introduce us. Lets have a meeting.

Cheers
-lev

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 6:12:52 PM WET Hagen SANKOWSKI wrote:
> Hello list!
> 
> A while ago I came across a very interessting high-temperature CMOS
> process on SOI for a client of mine.
> 
> https://www.ims.fraunhofer.de/en/Business_Units_and_Core_Competencies/High-T
> emperature-Electronics/Technologies/HT-SOI-CMOS.html
> 
> So, as I ask for manufacturing the manager told me, this process will be
> discontinued for economic reasons..
> 
> After some emails for and back offering help, publishing this process
> free and open, as Netscape did with their browser, I had a long call
> today with the higher management level.
> Well, he does not seems to be quite convinced to doing so. From his
> perspective, this would cost him money to support us, publishing all
> material they have in a god feasible way, mainly to pay his employees
> role.
> 
> I guess, somewhere was the hope, another fab would licensed the stuff..
> And he asked quite directly, what we would pay to get the process.
> As I understood, the process fits exactly into their machine park and
> has some quirk in exotic material and fabrication steps. So it wouldn't
> be a one-by-one transfer into a the public.
> 
> 
> My question is:
> Can we deal with that as Ransomware? Setting up a world-wide campaign of
> open-source enthusiasts to buy this process? I do not know about which
> amount of money he is thinking...
> I really know, if he put this process just into his safe, in a couple of
> years the process is dead for some reasons. All the developers are gone
> already, some old machines are already saled or scraped.
> He can not earn a batch of money with this process anymore, otherwise
> this would be still in usage, so he just likes to sale the leftovers.
> 
> Can or should we offer, let's say, one or two million? Or not?
> How much would it cost him to pay a couple of engineers to release the
> information to us and we'll do the rework and publishing?
> 
> Can we challenge this German Research institute in a way, it would give
> away the process "voluntarily"?
> E.g., can we argue with "public money - public code"?
> 
> 
> What do you think?? All creative thinking welcome :-)
> 
> Regards,
> Hagen.


-- 
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny.
(")_(")
Copy and paste Bunny into your
signature to help him gain world domination


From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Feb  4 05:44:59 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri,  4 Feb 2022 04:44:59 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] High-Temperature !! SOI 0.35u CMOS
 process as Ransomware???
In-Reply-To: <2649925.ZbM8O9YUTx@harvey>
References: <9f47f37a7984ee90960f2a3fd8455dc6@posteo.de>
 <2649925.ZbM8O9YUTx@harvey>
Message-ID: <280f4e6f-6e6a-e6c1-abff-7022c52b4ee2@posteo.de>


On 2/4/22 2:09 AM, David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> The question is... how much do they wanna have for a process they're 
> discontinuing?
> Didn't the process make them enough to make break-even by now?
> We should have some video conference with them, in which we discuss
> what Libresilicon is about, and maybe instead of buying the IP, we
> might even negotiate their longterm support out of it.
> But maybe I'm just an optimist because I'm used to Chinese culture...
> Haha...
> 
> Seriously. Introduce us. Lets have a meeting.


Well, this was kinda such a conference.

I got the appointment by surprise - after long time calling the (nearly
retired?) "process owner".


After introducing Libresilicon, we talked about the current situation.My
impression is, that he does not like to invest any money into the
process anymore but wouldn't resist getting money out of them.

So I draw this ASCII-art here for the flow chart he might have in mind

                        +----------------+
        .-------------> | process active | <------------.
        |               +----------------+              |
        |                       |                       |
        |                       v                       |
        |                ----------------               |
        |      yes      /                \              |
        * <----------- ( expenses covered ) 0.75 Mill   |
        |               \       ???      /  per year?   |
        |                ----------------               |
        |                       | no                    |
        |                       v                       |
        |                ----------------               |
        |      yes      /   profitable   \              |
        '------------- (  costumer ahead  )             |
                        \       ???      /              |
                         ----------------               |
                                | no                    |
                                v                       |
                         ----------------               |
+---------------+  yes  /      any       \              |
| process sold  | <--- (   buyer  ahead   )             |
+---------------+       \      ???       /              |
        ^                ----------------               |
        |                       | no                    |
        |                       v                       |
        |               +----------------+              |
        |               | process stalled|              |
        |               +----------------+              |
        |                       |                       |
        |                       v                       |
        |                ----------------               |
        |               /   profitable   \       yes    |
        |              (  costumer ahead  ) ------------'
        |               \       ???      /
        |                ----------------
        |                       | no
        |                       v
        |                ----------------
        |      yes      /      any       \
	'------------- (   buyer  ahead   )
                        \      ???       /
                         ----------------
                                | no
                                v
                        +----------------+
                        |  process dead  |
                        +----------------+

The process is currently in the 'stalled' state.

Where do you see a win-win for him and us? I guess, the magic "red
envelope" (Hong Bao) does not work here.. :-(

BTW, as I saw in papers from 2012, they already had an similar
high-temperature CMOS SOI process on 1 micron (called H10) which is
already gone. He was the manager in charge also this time.


Regards,
Hagen.

From martingeisse at googlemail.com  Sat Feb  5 16:34:52 2022
From: martingeisse at googlemail.com (Martin Geisse)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 16:34:52 +0100
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wafers with polysilicon pre-applied
Message-ID: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I just found something in Sam Zeloof's latest design (08/2021) that I
overlooked first and I'm not sure if it has been discussed here yet... He
uses wafers which are pre-doped for p-wells, and gate oxide and polysilicon
pre-applied without any mask. He then patterns, etches and n-dopes
source/drain regions, using the poly as a mask and then adds "hard-baked
photoresist as a dielectric" to separate the poly gate from the above metal
layer. This requires some changes in the process and will only allow n-type
transistors, but he completely avoids the problems with poly deposition AND
doesn't have to grow field oxide -- so I'm actually not sure if he needs a
high-temp furnace at all.

Link: top article on http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/

Opinions?

Greetings,
Martin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://list.libresilicon.com/pipermail/libresilicon-developers/attachments/20220205/44b4ebc7/attachment.html>

From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Feb  5 16:48:57 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 15:48:57 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wafers with polysilicon pre-applied
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3202227.UBjzyIZ4DA@harvey>

Hi
We already have been looking at Sam's process flow a while ago and already
noticed that he's "cheating", by using specialized wafers.
However. My goal is to develop a full stack manufacturing process, without
skipping essential parts.
I rather wanna find alternative chemical recipes for growing poly and oxide
which do not require military-grade poisonous gases :-)

Cheers
-lev

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:34:52 PM WET Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just found something in Sam Zeloof's latest design (08/2021) that I
> overlooked first and I'm not sure if it has been discussed here yet... He
> uses wafers which are pre-doped for p-wells, and gate oxide and polysilicon
> pre-applied without any mask. He then patterns, etches and n-dopes
> source/drain regions, using the poly as a mask and then adds "hard-baked
> photoresist as a dielectric" to separate the poly gate from the above metal
> layer. This requires some changes in the process and will only allow n-type
> transistors, but he completely avoids the problems with poly deposition AND
> doesn't have to grow field oxide -- so I'm actually not sure if he needs a
> high-temp furnace at all.
> 
> Link: top article on http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Feb  5 16:56:45 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 15:56:45 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wafers with polysilicon pre-applied
In-Reply-To: <3202227.UBjzyIZ4DA@harvey>
References: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3202227.UBjzyIZ4DA@harvey>
Message-ID: <3325002.fnlOjNpejk@harvey>

Hi
With a sputterer we could just sputter the silicon for forming the gates...
What do you think?

Cheers
-lev

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:48:57 PM WET David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> We already have been looking at Sam's process flow a while ago and already
> noticed that he's "cheating", by using specialized wafers.
> However. My goal is to develop a full stack manufacturing process, without
> skipping essential parts.
> I rather wanna find alternative chemical recipes for growing poly and oxide
> which do not require military-grade poisonous gases :-)
> 
> Cheers
> -lev
> 
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:34:52 PM WET Martin Geisse wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I just found something in Sam Zeloof's latest design (08/2021) that I
> > overlooked first and I'm not sure if it has been discussed here yet... He
> > uses wafers which are pre-doped for p-wells, and gate oxide and
> > polysilicon
> > pre-applied without any mask. He then patterns, etches and n-dopes
> > source/drain regions, using the poly as a mask and then adds "hard-baked
> > photoresist as a dielectric" to separate the poly gate from the above
> > metal
> > layer. This requires some changes in the process and will only allow
> > n-type
> > transistors, but he completely avoids the problems with poly deposition
> > AND
> > doesn't have to grow field oxide -- so I'm actually not sure if he needs a
> > high-temp furnace at all.
> > 
> > Link: top article on http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/
> > 
> > Opinions?
> > 
> > Greetings,
> > Martin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers


-- 
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny.
(")_(")
Copy and paste Bunny into your
signature to help him gain world domination


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sat Feb  5 17:05:50 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 16:05:50 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wafers with polysilicon pre-applied
In-Reply-To: <3325002.fnlOjNpejk@harvey>
References: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3202227.UBjzyIZ4DA@harvey> <3325002.fnlOjNpejk@harvey>
Message-ID: <5411784.5KDSaRbuHP@harvey>

Hi
The more I think about it, the more it starts to look feasible.
For the gate formation, we can just "abuse" the sputterer for depositing the
silicon layer, and for the isolation, we can use the spin coater with a
silicone solution and react it in the furnace into silicon oxide.
I think I'll sit down and start working out the chemical formulas...
would be easier, if I'd actually be a chemist tho... Haha
Any chemists here on the mailinglist anyway?

Cheers
-lev

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:56:45 PM WET David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> Hi
> With a sputterer we could just sputter the silicon for forming the gates...
> What do you think?
> 
> Cheers
> -lev
> 
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:48:57 PM WET David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> > Hi
> > We already have been looking at Sam's process flow a while ago and already
> > noticed that he's "cheating", by using specialized wafers.
> > However. My goal is to develop a full stack manufacturing process, without
> > skipping essential parts.
> > I rather wanna find alternative chemical recipes for growing poly and
> > oxide
> > which do not require military-grade poisonous gases :-)
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:34:52 PM WET Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I just found something in Sam Zeloof's latest design (08/2021) that I
> > > overlooked first and I'm not sure if it has been discussed here yet...
> > > He
> > > uses wafers which are pre-doped for p-wells, and gate oxide and
> > > polysilicon
> > > pre-applied without any mask. He then patterns, etches and n-dopes
> > > source/drain regions, using the poly as a mask and then adds "hard-baked
> > > photoresist as a dielectric" to separate the poly gate from the above
> > > metal
> > > layer. This requires some changes in the process and will only allow
> > > n-type
> > > transistors, but he completely avoids the problems with poly deposition
> > > AND
> > > doesn't have to grow field oxide -- so I'm actually not sure if he needs
> > > a
> > > high-temp furnace at all.
> > > 
> > > Link: top article on http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/
> > > 
> > > Opinions?
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Martin
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sun Feb  6 11:43:52 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:43:52 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Wafers with polysilicon pre-applied
In-Reply-To: <CACHJcZTPZq6ypuYqwAv+x0G1ioY5umuBZTQYa6UvGsynrgoDKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHJcZTNcFP+1rUH7zABUsig_9i0AUT2NJF9Z8XFciSKJ=E9uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5411784.5KDSaRbuHP@harvey>
 <CACHJcZTPZq6ypuYqwAv+x0G1ioY5umuBZTQYa6UvGsynrgoDKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3601325.XfrBis2v2p@harvey>

Hi Martin

Damn! That's a good point! O_O
Gotta share this with the mailing list, because that's an important 
information!
Hmm... Guess I've gotta go back to the drawing board then...
Seems we've gotta figure out some way to react undeadly chemicals
into Polysilicon then after all... Hmm

Cheers
-lev

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 4:16:14 PM WET Martin Geisse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This discussion suggests that you still need either a really good vacuum or
> H2, as any O2 or H2O will oxidize the silicon.
> https://www.researchgate.net/post/Why-Silicon-is-not-getting-deposited-by-rf
> -sputtering
> 
> As for the cheating, you have to draw the line somewhere since you won't be
> making your own wafers either. But goals are goals, and it's not my
> intention to convince you of anything :)
> 
> Greetings,
> Martin
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 5:06 PM David Lanzend?rfer <
> 
> leviathan at libresilicon.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> > The more I think about it, the more it starts to look feasible.
> > For the gate formation, we can just "abuse" the sputterer for depositing
> > the
> > silicon layer, and for the isolation, we can use the spin coater with a
> > silicone solution and react it in the furnace into silicon oxide.
> > I think I'll sit down and start working out the chemical formulas...
> > would be easier, if I'd actually be a chemist tho... Haha
> > Any chemists here on the mailinglist anyway?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > -lev
> > 
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:56:45 PM WET David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > With a sputterer we could just sputter the silicon for forming the
> > 
> > gates...
> > 
> > > What do you think?
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > -lev
> > > 
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:48:57 PM WET David Lanzend?rfer wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > > We already have been looking at Sam's process flow a while ago and
> > 
> > already
> > 
> > > > noticed that he's "cheating", by using specialized wafers.
> > > > However. My goal is to develop a full stack manufacturing process,
> > 
> > without
> > 
> > > > skipping essential parts.
> > > > I rather wanna find alternative chemical recipes for growing poly and
> > > > oxide
> > > > which do not require military-grade poisonous gases :-)
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > -lev
> > > > 
> > > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 3:34:52 PM WET Martin Geisse wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I just found something in Sam Zeloof's latest design (08/2021) that
> > > > > I
> > > > > overlooked first and I'm not sure if it has been discussed here
> > 
> > yet...
> > 
> > > > > He
> > > > > uses wafers which are pre-doped for p-wells, and gate oxide and
> > > > > polysilicon
> > > > > pre-applied without any mask. He then patterns, etches and n-dopes
> > > > > source/drain regions, using the poly as a mask and then adds
> > 
> > "hard-baked
> > 
> > > > > photoresist as a dielectric" to separate the poly gate from the
> > > > > above
> > > > > metal
> > > > > layer. This requires some changes in the process and will only allow
> > > > > n-type
> > > > > transistors, but he completely avoids the problems with poly
> > 
> > deposition
> > 
> > > > > AND
> > > > > doesn't have to grow field oxide -- so I'm actually not sure if he
> > 
> > needs
> > 
> > > > > a
> > > > > high-temp furnace at all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Link: top article on http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/
> > > > > 
> > > > > Opinions?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Greetings,
> > > > > Martin
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > > > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > > > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Libresilicon-developers mailing list
> > Libresilicon-developers at list.libresilicon.com
> > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers


-- 
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny.
(")_(")
Copy and paste Bunny into your
signature to help him gain world domination


From leviathan at libresilicon.com  Sun Feb 13 23:54:02 2022
From: leviathan at libresilicon.com (David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lanzend=F6rfer?=)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 22:54:02 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Particle sensor
Message-ID: <1750307.XDRXkp1q7U@harvey>

Hi everyone
A buddy of mine on Fediverse is working on the particle sensor thing from 
IKEA, Hagen has been talking about.
I already told him, we wanna use it for the clean room.
He's hacking on it right now and it starts looking really good:
https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/ikea?90#connect-to-pinedio-stack-bl604
He speaks English, Cantonese and ALSO Mandarin, so I'm REALLY looking
forward to his progress and welcoming him onto the team some time.

Cheers
-lev


From hsank at posteo.de  Fri Feb 18 19:22:56 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 18:22:56 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Reminder - Mumble session on Sunday
	2022-01-20 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <dc377709-a7bd-f252-18ff-2b3be2649c88@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly reminder for our next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2022-02-20 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.

From hsank at posteo.de  Sat Feb 26 15:28:35 2022
From: hsank at posteo.de (Hagen SANKOWSKI)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:28:35 +0000
Subject: [Libre-silicon-devel] Reminder - Mumble session on Sunday
	2022-01-207 @ 18:00 UTC
Message-ID: <203766e5-8dc2-3115-9fa4-567f4ffb7657@posteo.de>

Hello List!

This is our weekly reminder for our next Mumble Sessions on Sunday

	2022-02-27 @ 18:00 UTC.

Please join us as usual at our Mumble Server murmur.libresilicon.com at
Port 64738, the Channel is IC.

We like to follow-up our topics from mumble sessions before.

Regards,
Hagen.