guuuys i _did_ say don't crosspost. did i say don't crosspost? i did say, "don't crosspost". armnetbooks is ok because it's such a weirdly eclectic and topic-tolerant list. fosdem mailing list for visitors? mmmm... no. l. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, pavel@noa-labs.com <pavel@noa-labs.com> wrote:

Are 1um masks that expensive (compared to the rest of setup)? Or is it has more to do with turnaround times?

Can you share details of a light source and resist? One important thing will be to pick light source that will not burn the LCD matrix, and will not be absorbed by the glass much. Making a custom made LCD with special materials might not be that cheaper that sticking with masks for the beginning.

It will be truly great if one can just replace the mask with LCD with no extra work

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Libre-silicon-devel] [OT only slightly] STEAM Camp OpenSourceEcology 22jan2020 for 9 days From: David Lanzendörfer To: Libre-RISCV General Development ,Linux on small ARM machines , Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com,fosdem@lists.fosdem.org, libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com CC: Alasdair G Kergon ,Marcin Jakubowski

Hi My idea was to use an LCD plus a lens system in order to build a mask less stepper unit for manufacturing semiconductors. This way the costs for the mask sets would fall away and you would suddenly be able to provide something like a pooling service for semiconductors.

What do you think?

Something worth combining your brain power over in those said 9 days?

Cheers -lev

On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 4:42:10 PM HKT Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

...

apologies for the cross-list post, the topic is very likely to be of direct or indirect interest, please do share elsewhere, however for questions please do reach out directly to Marcin from OSE rather than crosspost replies!

the OpenSourceEcology Project is running a hands-on real-time collaboration and training course for 9 days that happens to have one of its camps in Ghent, Belgium, only around an hour by train away from FOSDEM and running up to overlap with FOSDEM only on its last 2 days, Feb 1st and 2nd, 2020.

https://www.opensourceecology.org/steam-camp-january-2020/

Marcin's Ted Talk is here: https://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski_open_ sourced_blueprints_for_civi lization?language=en

it is the beginning of a practical real-world bootstrap process for a modern civilisation and actually uses and puts into use everything that we love about FOSS and FOSH.

participants will get to actually *make* a 3D Printer, a CNC milling machine, then use those to fabricate an Arduino PCB which... you get the idea. a battery operated welder will also be one of the hands-on projects.

Alasdair, an idea just occurred to me: can we discuss privately, they are doing "remote" collaboration: is there room / time for OSE to book a workshop by remote link, for two reasons: one in case FOSDEM attendees are interested to see what is going on, but secondly, if anyone who attends STEAM would like to keep in touch whilst attending FOSDEM? Can we discuss off-list(s)?

best,

l.

---

Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers

-- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Hi Pavel One one micron mask set can cost between two thousand US dollar and upwards (depending on the amount of layers), but this cost will increase drastically as soon as you go below one micron. Additionally there are multiple draw backs about mask sets which could be eliminated when using a mask less lithography system. For instance, you only can expose one pattern using a stepper, and even if you only have a hand full of prototypes to manufacture, you will still end up paying the costs for the mask sets, even if you do only one single wafer. In addition the loading and unloading of the masks into the stepper aligner is time consuming. Having a display just switch between layouts during exposure allows for an arbitrary amount of prototype chips without the need for manufacturing masks. This BTW also reduces another attack vector from Andrew (Bunnie) Huang, which he mentioned during his congress talk. Cheers -lev On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 8:38:25 PM HKT pavel@noa-labs.com wrote:

Are 1um masks that expensive (compared to the rest of setup)? Or is it has more to do with turnaround times?

Can you share details of a light source and resist? One important thing will be to pick light source that will not burn the LCD matrix, and will not be absorbed by the glass much. Making a custom made LCD with special materials might not be that cheaper that sticking with masks for the beginning.

It will be truly great if one can just replace the mask with LCD with no extra work

That's a great idea if we can coordinate that - if there are more people involved. The project for the 5 Project Days of the 9 day event is a Raspberry Pi Film Studio, which will fill all that time already. But if a bunch of people want to join, then we can do both - otherwise we'd need to choose one or the other. That is above our pay grade as the curriculum is tightly defined already with less ambitious builds, though still exciting for the novice or rapid learner. If we have the higher pay grade people join from FOSDEM, this can happen. Luke, any thoughts on you stepping up and coordinating the maskless stepper module of this crazy evolution? Marcin On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:43 AM David Lanzendörfer < leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:

Hi My idea was to use an LCD plus a lens system in order to build a mask less stepper unit for manufacturing semiconductors. This way the costs for the mask sets would fall away and you would suddenly be able to provide something like a pooling service for semiconductors.

What do you think?

Something worth combining your brain power over in those said 9 days?

Cheers -lev

On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 4:42:10 PM HKT Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

...

apologies for the cross-list post, the topic is very likely to be of direct or indirect interest, please do share elsewhere, however for questions please do reach out directly to Marcin from OSE rather than crosspost replies!

the OpenSourceEcology Project is running a hands-on real-time collaboration and training course for 9 days that happens to have one of its camps in Ghent, Belgium, only around an hour by train away from FOSDEM and running up to overlap with FOSDEM only on its last 2 days, Feb 1st and 2nd, 2020.

https://www.opensourceecology.org/steam-camp-january-2020/

Marcin's Ted Talk is here:

https://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski_open_sourced_blueprints_for_civi

...

lization?language=en

it is the beginning of a practical real-world bootstrap process for a modern civilisation and actually uses and puts into use everything that we love about FOSS and FOSH.

participants will get to actually *make* a 3D Printer, a CNC milling machine, then use those to fabricate an Arduino PCB which... you get the idea. a battery operated welder will also be one of the hands-on projects.

Alasdair, an idea just occurred to me: can we discuss privately, they are doing "remote" collaboration: is there room / time for OSE to book a workshop by remote link, for two reasons: one in case FOSDEM attendees are interested to see what is going on, but secondly, if anyone who attends STEAM would like to keep in touch whilst attending FOSDEM? Can we discuss off-list(s)?

best,

l.

-- *Full Disclosure:* OSE works openly. All conversations in this email are intended to be transparent and subject to sharing, with due respect. OSE does not sign NDAs in order to promote collaboration. All of our work is libre or open source. If you are discussing potential hardware development collaboration, your work must also be open source pursuant to the Open Source Hardware Association definition <http://www.oshwa.org/definition/>. See Global Village Construction Set TED Talk <http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski>. See latest build of Seed Eco-Home <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/622508883/open-building-institute-eco-building-toolkit/posts/1750160>. Subscribe as a True Fan <http://opensourceecology.org/community/#truefans>. See OSE Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/OpenSourceEcology> for updates or join the discussion at the OSE Workshops FB Page <https://www.facebook.com/groups/398759490316633/>. Subscribe to monthly update OSEmail <https://www.opensourceecology.org/moving-to-open-source-email-list-software/>. Donate to our 501(c)3 <http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Other_donation_options>. OSE work is an ambitious volunteer project. Please consider joining as a dedicated OSE Developer <http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/OSE_Developers>. Marcin Jakubowski, Ph.D. Executive Director Open Source Ecology http://opensourceecology.org

Happy new year everybody ! On 2020-01-01 00:28, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On 12/31/19, Marcin Jakubowski <marcin@opensourceecology.org> wrote:

...

Luke, any thoughts on you stepping up and coordinating the maskless stepper module of this crazy evolution?

as we (privately) discussed yesterday, there are 4 levels of NDAs: HDL tools, VLSI tools, Cell Libraries and Foudries.

i'm waaay overloaded by dealing with level 1 heavily and interacting with people at level 2 and 3.

david and the libre-silicon team are dealing with level *4* heavily, level 3 in a big way, and interacting with people at levels 2 and 1. they're the best people for this.

So who should I ask for help with 3 and 4 ? My microcontroller design is progressing well, I'm getting down to individual cells and I bootstrapped the design with ProASIC3 FPGA cells but without precharacterised cell libraries and other silicon-proven information, I can not estimate the timings. Not to mention that things like SRAM arrays are a whole new territory... Thanks for letting me discover about libresilicon !

l. yg

Hi Marcin

This is great - https://libresilicon.com/ Thanks :-)

What are the current equipment needs that Open Source Ecology can help with?We design and build industrial machines, and on our roadmap for 2022 is production of photovoltaics. How much overlap is there for equipment needs? In general, the operation of a clean room, even when minimal sized, is pretty expensive because of all the chemicals and the power consumption of the machines. What would be cool would be simplistic plasma etcher machines with batch load capability (from wafer cassette), as well as coaters and developers for the application of the resist. Then of course we need some furnaces, CMP engines and so on. Maybe you go through the documentation I wrote to get a better idea.

Great diagrams at https://download.libresilicon.com/process/v1/process_hightech_steps.pdf - thanks for producing that. Thanks for the compliments and thanks! Took me quite a while to make those with tikz (It's all in LaTeX).

For some of the machines - Ion implanter • Plasma etcher • Sputter engine (Metal deposition) • Diffusion furnace • CVD/LPCVD machine • Exposure unit - are these the high cost items that constitute the majority of the $1B cost of a fab? Or are there other major costs? My starting assumption is that we can reduce the cost of a $1B fab 100x with open source design and collaboration. Yeah. Those machines cost quite a lot even when bought second hand, and also the rent to already established labs, like the one at HKUST or the one in Lisbon, I'm probably going to use instead, (Portugal is a fantastic country, totally looking forward to go there), is pretty high. In order to set up a lab you'll have immense initial costs, just because manufacturing the required equipment will be very expensive, even if it's open source, you will still require the man hours and materials to build them.

Are you aware of any viable open source versions of the above equipment? Nope. That's why we have to design them from scratch.

Regarding smart-contract based rewarding of IP contributors in your Lightning Talk <https://download.libresilicon.com/propaganda/talk.pdf> - does that mechanism have traction yet? Nope. That was more of a strategic move in the hope to get some crypto hippsters involved into the financing. Didn't work out so well. On the other hand, having the checksums for the verified GDS2 files in a decentralized database makes it way harder for an attacker to modify the layout somewhere on GitHub after said layout has been silicon verified and checked for security issues.

-lev

I think ours qualifies as an ambitious Maker Space, so let this be the first official claim of record for Factor e Farm, our facility, to produce the world's first complete libre fab down to near quantum tunneling limits, and PV manufacturing facility on top of that:) Open silicon is just a prerequisite for a democratic society, as I'm sure that most people on this list understand. Happy New Year to all of you. MJ On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 3:02 AM Hagen SANKOWSKI <hsank@posteo.de> wrote:

On 1/1/20 12:58 AM, Marcin Jakubowski wrote:

...

For some of the machines - Ion implanter • Plasma etcher • Sputter engine (Metal deposition) • Diffusion furnace • CVD/LPCVD machine • Exposure unit - are these the high cost items that constitute the majority of the $1B cost of a fab? Or are there other major costs? My starting assumption is that we can reduce the cost of a $1B fab 100x with open source design and collaboration.

Are you aware of any viable open source versions of the above equipment? Someone on the 36c3 pointed me to this sides

https://www.fabsurplus.com https://www.used-line.com/list-semiconductor-and-pcb https://surplus.infineon.com/

We do not have the Clean Room to host this nice used equipment. Even if there are price tags often with $100 only - you have to disassemble the stuff in the clean room there, ship to your location across a couple of borders and their regulations and assemble them on your own site again. Sometimes also this machines need some repair; and ofcourse cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning before you'll get the classification again.

I guess, this equipment does not fit into your basement.

Another guess is, a location like a very, very ambitious Maker Space or another University lab (like NFF at HKUST) to manufacture chips should be possible - or a partnership of a University and a Maker Space 'cause the task is to big for a single entity, so they have to cooperate on this.

We have to find the right people to argue or to infect with the D.I.Y. virus.

-- support LibreSilicon to get back into the Clean Room https://www.gofundme.com/f/libresilicon-cleanroom-rent

-- *Full Disclosure:* OSE works openly. All conversations in this email are intended to be transparent and subject to sharing, with due respect. OSE does not sign NDAs in order to promote collaboration. All of our work is libre or open source. If you are discussing potential hardware development collaboration, your work must also be open source pursuant to the Open Source Hardware Association definition <http://www.oshwa.org/definition/>. See Global Village Construction Set TED Talk <http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski>. See latest build of Seed Eco-Home <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/622508883/open-building-institute-eco-building-toolkit/posts/1750160>. Subscribe as a True Fan <http://opensourceecology.org/community/#truefans>. See OSE Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/OpenSourceEcology> for updates or join the discussion at the OSE Workshops FB Page <https://www.facebook.com/groups/398759490316633/>. Subscribe to monthly update OSEmail <https://www.opensourceecology.org/moving-to-open-source-email-list-software/>. Donate to our 501(c)3 <http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Other_donation_options>. OSE work is an ambitious volunteer project. Please consider joining as a dedicated OSE Developer <http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/OSE_Developers>. Marcin Jakubowski, Ph.D. Executive Director Open Source Ecology http://opensourceecology.org