Hi I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki. Cheers -lev -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
Hello David, I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI slave device, it is fine. Regards, Ferenc On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hi I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki.
Cheers -lev
OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is. Cheers On Saturday, August 21, 2021 10:48:28 PM WEST Ferenc Éger wrote:
Hello David,
I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI slave device, it is fine.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hi I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki.
Cheers -lev
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Cheers
tatzelbrumm
On Saturday, August 21, 2021 10:48:28 PM WEST Ferenc Éger wrote:
Hello David,
I generally agree on it. Not only this is not a political forum, but we have to ensure not to deter present and future members and partners as well. However, care must be taken not to fall over the other side of the horse. As long as it is not prescribed that "program", "utility" and "algorithm" are forbidden and "app" shall be used instead, and we can talk about blacklists and an SPI master device still selects an SPI slave device, it is fine.
Regards,
Ferenc
On 21/08/2021 21:22, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Hi I've been thinking about how to handle situations in the future like the mailing list recently, and I came to the conclusion that a code of conduct has to be formulated, which states that this project aims to be neutral when it comes to anything beyond manufacturing free and open source silicon, so political debates aren't welcome. If it's ok, I will draft a text on the Mediawiki.
Cheers -lev
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf. -- Chips want to be free.
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi) <staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf.
Now I'm really glad that I asked. tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)
<staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf.
Now I'm really glad that I asked.
tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Awesome! Lets use it! Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner. On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: * -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
Would the answer to the question: "What is the most effective pentesting device?" be considered a Political Statement? tatzelbrumm On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:52 PM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Awesome! Lets use it!
Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)
<staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf.
Now I'm really glad that I asked.
tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: *
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Nah. That's a simple technical question. If someone wants to find "sexist innuendos" in something, they'll always find it, that's exactly why I wanna keep insane activists out. BTW: The most effective pen testing device depends on the situation. It can range from a crow bar, to a lock picking set, to some packs of C4 with ignition capsules or just a simple spectrum analyzer in case you're analyzing chatter in the ether :-) For IT purposes, MetaSploit is usually the way to go, and just good old nmap ;-) Cheers -lev On Monday, August 23, 2021 6:53:42 PM WEST Christoph Maier wrote:
Would the answer to the question: "What is the most effective pentesting device?" be considered a Political Statement?
tatzelbrumm
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 5:52 PM David Lanzendörfer
<leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Awesome! Lets use it!
Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.
On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)
<staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf.
Now I'm really glad that I asked.
tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
*
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
Hello list, "we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.": That's why highly visible projects usually form themselves into a legal entity and trademark their name and symbols... Regards, Ferenc On 23/08/2021 17:52, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Awesome! Lets use it!
Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)
<staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ... Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf. Now I'm really glad that I asked.
tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote: *
Hmm... VERY good point On Monday, August 23, 2021 11:53:03 PM WEST Ferenc Éger wrote:
Hello list,
"we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.": That's why highly visible projects usually form themselves into a legal entity and trademark their name and symbols...
Regards,
Ferenc
On 23/08/2021 17:52, David Lanzendörfer wrote:
Awesome! Lets use it!
Hmm... I think we've got to expand it a bit further, because we also have to make sure that we don't have people engaging anywhere outside of the LibreSilicon mailinglist doing political activism under the banner.
On Monday, August 23, 2021 10:29:40 AM WEST Christoph Maier wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:16 AM Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)
<staf@fibraservi.eu> wrote:
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier:
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC Staf.
Now I'm really glad that I asked.
tatzelbrumm
-- Chips want to be free.
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
*
_______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi):
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote: OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzendörfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed.
The goal of having a set of guide lines is to keep this project free of pointless distracting debates, which aren't part of the topic of making open silicon without back doors from intelligence agencies. I think that as soon as we're going to make progress, this will be something, we WILL have to fend of, so we better prepare sooner than later, because experience shows that "dividi et imperam" is a common tactics used those days in the age of informational warfare to slow down and neutralize potentially dangerous groups... and a group developing the means to decentralize the manufacturing and close all potential back doors for mass surveillance, is certainly on the list of the five edged war factory :-) Cheers -lev On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg wrote:
Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi):
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote: OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzendörfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and why roads already were built in a time when there were no formal governments paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being able to conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be abolished. But that's not the platform for that either :-) On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg wrote:
Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi):
Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote: OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ...
Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzendörfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
To prevent a misscommunication. I am in favor of a CoC and against https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC in particular. Am 2021-08-25 00:26, schrieb David Lanzendörfer:
I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and why roads already were built in a time when there were no formal governments paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being able to conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be abolished.
But that's not the platform for that either :-)
On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg wrote: Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote: OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ... Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzendörfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
Well. I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it... So I vote for this NCoC On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 11:58:15 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg wrote:
To prevent a misscommunication. I am in favor of a CoC and against https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC in particular.
Am 2021-08-25 00:26, schrieb David Lanzendörfer:
I mean, I could also try to convince you all why taxation is theft and why roads already were built in a time when there were no formal governments paying it with tax payer money, but were built by tradesmen for being able to conduct their free enterprise, and why central banks should be abolished.
But that's not the platform for that either :-)
On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:01:59 PM WEST Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg wrote: Am 2021-08-23 11:16, schrieb Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi): Op 23/08/2021 om 10:32 schreef Christoph Maier: On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:38 AM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote: OK The thing is, that we've got to make sure in the future, that questions about funding and so can be answered with the code of conduct. In order to be effective, we can not accept money where strings are attached, because we've got to make sure that we stay independent. Especially with my back ground I'd know some folks to ask for funding, but then the independence and trustworthyness of the project would be put into question. Also patents are a no-no. Also we should underline in the COD that the LibreSilicon label must not be used by people to get involved in political activism, and it doesn't matter how well ment it is.
Interestingly, a Code of Conduct is typically a well-meant (as opposed to well made) statement of political activism :-P
Ah well. Whatever it takes ... Have you guys looked at No Code of Conduct: https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC
I don't think this code of conduct will serve community well. I thought Lanzendörfer's suggestions on disallowing repropriatorization on community controoled turf (such as maling lists) are a good idea. The call for a code of conduct came because content on the mailing list made people annoyed. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
On August 24, 2021 11:07:00 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Well. I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it...
i took a look, it seems to be a (amusing but relevant) anti-backlash reaction to the extraordinarily damaging blinkered toxic contributor covenant. the issue with "anti-anything" is unfortunately the focus on the "anything" bit. i do like that it says "we assume everyone is adults" although this could be misconstrued as patronising, i am confident that people who understand the intent will get through that. the Libre-SOC Charter is at its heart utterly simple: * Always do good * Never do harm * the code applies 100% of the time * Everyone knows the Code. this again assumes "everyone is Adults" without actually spelling that out (because Adults don't *need* it spelled out). it also assumes that everyone knows the difference between "good" and "harm" AGAIN WITHOUT SPELLING THAT OUT OR INSULTING PEOPLE by smashing them in the face with an ultra-toxic, patronising and self-sabotaging list of divisive self-defeating behaviours and characteristics, which, by definition, are always going to be incomplete. by being so profoundly simple and yet defining the Charter in terms of "good" and "harm" it is extraordinarily flexible i.e. can be constantly analysed and adaptive. you *know* when someone does (or does not do) or writes something that harms the project. not because it was one of the f*****g stupid toxic proscribed behaviours, but because of the adverse impact the action (or inaction) had. example: a case could be made that the recent discussion which triggered the demand for a CoC was BENEFICIAL to the project. that although it irritated some people it actually covered quite important uncomfortable topics that people were nervous even to discuss, which could risk people being imprisoned or fined if they had not thought about the issues. [due to Asperger's i have no such fear] just because you feel UNCOMFORTABLE does NOT equate to "The Project Has Been Harmed". this is the risk of the stupid toxic CoCs: i cannot tell you how many times some dickheaded morons have judged me by their stupid proscribed list of behaviours, instead of seeing me as a human being. you can tell i am pissed off by such shortsighted judgemental behaviour, effectively abuse: it makes me both angry and sad at the same time. in short i advocate that you consider thinking very carefully about a Charter and CoC. anti-this and anti-that statements will come back to haunt you, in short order. l.
Hmm. This gave me a lot to think about. Maybe just adapting the heavy handed CCP approach and just banning anything which might cause a problem isn't the right way to go after all... Hmm... I mean, if someone wants to smear this project, they can always find something trying to curate content doesn't help anyway, because experience shows that they then just invent stuff if needed. I mean, anyone with common sense will understand that a group with a multitude of members has a diverse range of opinions of which none are representative of the project goal itself. Not that 2021 has been the year in which humanity would have really proven to have a broadly present common sense, but still. Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list? On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 3:11:12 PM WEST lkcl wrote:
On August 24, 2021 11:07:00 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Well. I find this NCoC most suitable so far, because I fully agree with it...
i took a look, it seems to be a (amusing but relevant) anti-backlash reaction to the extraordinarily damaging blinkered toxic contributor covenant. the issue with "anti-anything" is unfortunately the focus on the "anything" bit.
i do like that it says "we assume everyone is adults" although this could be misconstrued as patronising, i am confident that people who understand the intent will get through that.
the Libre-SOC Charter is at its heart utterly simple:
* Always do good * Never do harm * the code applies 100% of the time * Everyone knows the Code.
this again assumes "everyone is Adults" without actually spelling that out (because Adults don't *need* it spelled out).
it also assumes that everyone knows the difference between "good" and "harm" AGAIN WITHOUT SPELLING THAT OUT OR INSULTING PEOPLE by smashing them in the face with an ultra-toxic, patronising and self-sabotaging list of divisive self-defeating behaviours and characteristics, which, by definition, are always going to be incomplete.
by being so profoundly simple and yet defining the Charter in terms of "good" and "harm" it is extraordinarily flexible i.e. can be constantly analysed and adaptive.
you *know* when someone does (or does not do) or writes something that harms the project.
not because it was one of the f*****g stupid toxic proscribed behaviours, but because of the adverse impact the action (or inaction) had.
example: a case could be made that the recent discussion which triggered the demand for a CoC was BENEFICIAL to the project.
that although it irritated some people it actually covered quite important uncomfortable topics that people were nervous even to discuss, which could risk people being imprisoned or fined if they had not thought about the issues. [due to Asperger's i have no such fear]
just because you feel UNCOMFORTABLE does NOT equate to "The Project Has Been Harmed".
this is the risk of the stupid toxic CoCs: i cannot tell you how many times some dickheaded morons have judged me by their stupid proscribed list of behaviours, instead of seeing me as a human being. you can tell i am pissed off by such shortsighted judgemental behaviour, effectively abuse: it makes me both angry and sad at the same time.
in short i advocate that you consider thinking very carefully about a Charter and CoC. anti-this and anti-that statements will come back to haunt you, in short order.
l. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:24 PM David Lanzendörfer <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Hmm. This gave me a lot to think about. Maybe just adapting the heavy handed CCP approach and just banning anything which might cause a problem isn't the right way to go after all... Hmm...
FWIW, the CCP's heave handed approach IS their Code of Conduct they force down everyone's throat. Stay Calm And Carry On ... tatzelbrumm
On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list?
what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed topics, too? a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as well as "waste time" (more "harm") however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer embarrassment. thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a proscribed list of topics and behaviours. this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way. bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out. NCoC without a [N]CoC :) l. (2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist 2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress.
Haha Yeah. That's exactly the kind of insane political activism I wanna avoid getting on here. So don't worry, no one will resort to name calling and banning you on here. I mean it's just a reflection of the insanity which has become western politics nowadays and has been sweeping through all the governments. Everyone who diverges from a certain party line, and doesn't comply to certain Newspeak rules is suddenly labeled all kinds of names under the sky. If you combine everything my haters say about me... it's insane... some people managed to accuse me of being an All-night-Yazi AND a Commie in the SAME breath. (BTW: I'm an Anarcho Capitalist/Libertarian LOL) As long as you don't try to take my liberties away, I don't really care, I'm a huge friend of the NAP, just follow the NAP :-) Cheers -lev On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote:
On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list?
what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed topics, too?
a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as well as "waste time" (more "harm")
however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer embarrassment.
thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a proscribed list of topics and behaviours.
this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way.
bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out.
NCoC without a [N]CoC :)
l.
(2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist
2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
Haha, and yeah, we all know those kind of people who think they're the "resistance", and people who speak out against their authoritarian behaviour would be "facists"... Which in itself doesn't make any sense anyway... Also, if every major corporation and even the government agree with you, it's a good indicator, that you are NOT the resistance. But I'm not surprised that the EU cooperation went to the Wokémon at FOSSIs, because you know, you've gotta represent'em all. xD Another reason why I'm not a fan of government funding, because it's always tied to some political bull, if someone wants to donate privately or semi-privately to a project which aims to one day actually produce semiconductors which do not allow agencies to stick their noses into our private conversations, in order to check on whether we only use words from the new revision of the INGSOC dictionary, I'm fine with it, otherwise I'm ok with not getting parts of the money the governments stole from EU citizens in the form of taxes. :-) On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote:
On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list?
what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed topics, too?
a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as well as "waste time" (more "harm")
however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer embarrassment.
thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a proscribed list of topics and behaviours.
this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way.
bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out.
NCoC without a [N]CoC :)
l.
(2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist
2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to report this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the founder is a Libertarian and the project aims to build truly free silicon chips for helping to protect the privacy and personal liberty of its users... Hmm... Yes. I'm so terrible, because we all know that all those despots in history, like Stalin and Mussolini, were all about freedom of speech, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and were big fans of a free market. *eye roll* LOL On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 4:01:56 PM WEST lkcl wrote:
On August 25, 2021 2:24:08 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
Maybe just a disclaimer somewhere to please TRY to avoid starting political debates on this mailing list?
what happens on the next "incident"? add that to the list of proscribed topics, too?
a Charter which has "always do good, never do harm" it is pretty obvious that a distracting off-topic political debate might irritate some people, but more importantly make the project look weird and thus "cause harm", as well as "waste time" (more "harm")
however, it *might* be the case that people *welcome* an amusing distraction if under a lot of pressure to get a job done. they can let off steam, and, importantly, they know that whoops they just wasted time, and, with the contrast now clear, get back on topic with more focus simply out of sheer embarrassment.
thus it is really down to context, each and every time, and that's not in the least bit possible to put into something as strictly defined as a proscribed list of topics and behaviours.
this is what particularly angered and upset me about the FOSSI Foundation, whose dictats can only be described as urban-dictionary-definition (2) "fascist", when they banned me from their lists *based on their own judgemental and day-to-day mistakes*, completely without asking what was going on, in any kind of empathic or context-sensitive way.
bottom line is, you know exactly when a topic has crossed a line, because people will get upset and go off topic and be distracted and so on and so forth. that is by definition "harm" and you can watch out for it in all its forms... *without* needing to actually spell it out.
NCoC without a [N]CoC :)
l.
(2) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascist
2. A lesser authority (corporation, mayor, cop, boss, parent) who legally issues harsh, burdensome, micro-managing, insensitive, or uncaring orders -- especially when they know, or should know, that their goals can be accomplished with more autonomy and much less hardship or distress. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
On August 25, 2021 10:02:16 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to report this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the founder is a Libertarian
i went to porcfest 2016 and met several fascinating people there. they explained that Anarcho-Capitalism is simply "No Arch" - No Hierarchy" and thus by definition to be a Libertarian is a declaration that YOU take DIRECT and full Sovereign responsibility for your life and your finances, and you neither expect nor allow anyone to take that. that's it. it's real simple. you will also be fascinated to know that i met Bob Podolski there, and he was the one who explained that Code to me. it is the Titanian's Code of Honour. note, "Code of Honour", not "Code of Conduct". l.
Awesome! Code of Honor really sounds nice :-) But yeah, you nailed my position pretty much: DIRECT and full responsibility On Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:39:12 AM WEST lkcl wrote:
On August 25, 2021 10:02:16 PM UTC, "David Lanzendörfer" <leviathan@libresilicon.com> wrote:
I wonder how long it takes now for someone from the "resistance" to report this project to the Gestapo for being a "Yazi group" because the founder is a Libertarian
i went to porcfest 2016 and met several fascinating people there. they explained that Anarcho-Capitalism is simply "No Arch" - No Hierarchy" and thus by definition to be a Libertarian is a declaration that YOU take DIRECT and full Sovereign responsibility for your life and your finances, and you neither expect nor allow anyone to take that.
that's it. it's real simple.
you will also be fascinated to know that i met Bob Podolski there, and he was the one who explained that Code to me. it is the Titanian's Code of Honour.
note, "Code of Honour", not "Code of Conduct".
l.
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
I can no longer resist tossing my 2¢ into this off-topic thread… Let us create <LibreSilicon-meta@list.LibreSilicon.com> to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat. Peace --Devon P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, … I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin.
Hmm... Might be an idea... bringing back the good old times, when flamewars were carried out on Mailinglists and NOT on the platforms of social media BigTech giants which were putting content restrictions on you and were brainwashing you while you were using the tool. Here's LibreSilicon META: https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-meta Cheers -lev On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote:
I can no longer resist tossing my 2¢ into this off-topic thread… Let us create <LibreSilicon-meta@list.LibreSilicon.com> to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat.
Peace --Devon
P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, … I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
While we're on it, I could also create libresilicon-nonap, where all the crazy wokémon can come and tell me how much of a terrible communist-all-night-yazi authoritarian-anarchist antisemite-zionist I am, for being a Libertarian AnCap... hmm LOL On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote:
I can no longer resist tossing my 2¢ into this off-topic thread… Let us create <LibreSilicon-meta@list.LibreSilicon.com> to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat.
Peace --Devon
P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, … I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
So. I created the list, feel free to sign up, so we can discuss why I'm tolerant and where it stops for me. And we can discuss on why the NAP for me stops at the point where some shit head makes a Sieg Heil on me and tells me essentially that he endorses that some of my relatives didn't make it through WW2 and then everyone is surprised that at some point I loose it, after having been stalked by him, after having told him in no uncertain words, that I'm quarter Jewish and that I just return his desires to kill me. Or why I think that Taiwan and Hong Kong would actually be much better off under rule from Beijing, because many peski laws like the Safrole ban, high tobacco and alcohol taxes as well as smoking prohibited signs would go away. Also, the life for farmers would become much easier under Beijing rule, because unlike here in the EU, where there's a shit ton of regulations, after some petitioning (also from me), the Shenzhen government now lets use farmers some parts of the street for free, without licenses required and the money from the sales is tax free for the farmers, which makes China at least in this aspect even more Libertarian than the EU. Yes. Beijing might have a heavy handed approach on things, but at least they're not batshit insane like the wokémon or German politicians like Klaus Lauterbach and Angela Merkel. We can go more into detail on stances like this now, on... *drums* LibreSilicon-META Cheers -lev On Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:39:14 PM WEST Devon Sean McCullough wrote:
I can no longer resist tossing my 2¢ into this off-topic thread… Let us create <LibreSilicon-meta@list.LibreSilicon.com> to absorb emotion-laden, political or idle chit-chat.
Peace --Devon
P.S. Likewise recipes for food, beer, hydrofoils, … I'm particularly fond of wok-sauteed squash with onions, olive oil, ginger, garlic, rosemary and cumin. _______________________________________________ Libresilicon-developers mailing list Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers
-- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Ninja Bunny. (")_(") Copy and paste Bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
participants (7)
-
Christoph Maier -
David Lanzendörfer -
Devon Sean McCullough -
Ferenc Éger -
Johann-Tobias Aaron Raphael Schäg -
lkcl -
Staf Verhaegen (FibraServi)