Some questions regarding the NVDLA and "NVIDIA Open NVDLA License and Agreement v1.0"
Hello list, I’m not very much familiar with different types of licenses and their legal issues. So would some one do me a favor and answer my questions? 1. Is NVDLA a libre and royalty-free IP core? 2. Is it possible to modify it and relicense the modifications? 3. You know AFAIK the GPU architecture is somewhat similar to AI accelerator. So I’m thinking NVDLA is a good starting point but I don’t know about potential legal issues. So what do you think guys? Best regards, Manili NVDLA Official Website: http://nvdla.org/ <http://nvdla.org/> NVIDIA Open NVDLA License and Agreement v1.0: http://nvdla.org/license.html <http://nvdla.org/license.html>
Hi manili
I’m not very much familiar with different types of licenses and their legal issues. So would some one do me a favor and answer my questions? Ok. I'll try my best :-)
1. Is NVDLA a libre and royalty-free IP core? It's not Libre for a simple reason: I'm not able to modify and share the core with others. Only the software around the core is covered by this license. It's like with the GPL, which doesn't cover the actual IP core they license their Verilog under at all (OpenCores.org issue) At no point I actually receive a full transistor layout of the IP core, only LEF files with the pin-out (at best!) It's more than a bit cheasy and quiet a bit of a diversion strategy to publish a free license when your core business is actually chip designs which are not covered at all under a copyright based licensing scheme... >_> nVidia just got evil++, some level-ups really aren't that good.
2. Is it possible to modify it and relicense the modifications? Software sure, but good luck getting the GDS2 files with the actual IP core in the first place in order to modify it. Or even more unlikely, the Cadence (def) files with the actual wiring information.
3. You know AFAIK the GPU architecture is somewhat similar to AI accelerator. So I’m thinking NVDLA is a good starting point but I don’t know about potential legal issues. So what do you think guys? Well. Even if they license the code around their core under a free-ish license I bet 6 king cans of Tsing Tao or Paulaner, that the actual VLSI layout information of the actual core is only available after signing 23ish interlinked NDAs which contain your eternal soul now belonging to nVidia as well as your first born and all your other belongings.
Cheers -lev
Hi, there is now also an actual open-source NN inference engine https://tvm.ai/2018/07/12/vta-release-announcement.html Cheers, David On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 19:44, David Lanzendörfer <david.lanzendoerfer@o2s.ch> wrote:
Hi manili
I’m not very much familiar with different types of licenses and their legal issues. So would some one do me a favor and answer my questions? Ok. I'll try my best :-)
1. Is NVDLA a libre and royalty-free IP core? It's not Libre for a simple reason: I'm not able to modify and share the core with others. Only the software around the core is covered by this license. It's like with the GPL, which doesn't cover the actual IP core they license their Verilog under at all (OpenCores.org issue) At no point I actually receive a full transistor layout of the IP core, only LEF files with the pin-out (at best!) It's more than a bit cheasy and quiet a bit of a diversion strategy to publish a free license when your core business is actually chip designs which are not covered at all under a copyright based licensing scheme... >_> nVidia just got evil++, some level-ups really aren't that good.
2. Is it possible to modify it and relicense the modifications? Software sure, but good luck getting the GDS2 files with the actual IP core in the first place in order to modify it. Or even more unlikely, the Cadence (def) files with the actual wiring information.
3. You know AFAIK the GPU architecture is somewhat similar to AI accelerator. So I’m thinking NVDLA is a good starting point but I don’t know about potential legal issues. So what do you think guys? Well. Even if they license the code around their core under a free-ish license I bet 6 king cans of Tsing Tao or Paulaner, that the actual VLSI layout information of the actual core is only available after signing 23ish interlinked NDAs which contain your eternal soul now belonging to nVidia as well as your first born and all your other belongings.
Cheers -lev_______________________________________________ Libre-silicon-devel mailing list Libre-silicon-devel@list.libresilicon.com http://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libre-silicon-devel
Thanks a lot David, I’ll take a look at it. Best regards, Manili
On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 PM, David Kochanov <david.kochanov@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, there is now also an actual open-source NN inference engine https://tvm.ai/2018/07/12/vta-release-announcement.html <https://tvm.ai/2018/07/12/vta-release-announcement.html> Cheers, David
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 19:44, David Lanzendörfer <david.lanzendoerfer@o2s.ch <mailto:david.lanzendoerfer@o2s.ch>> wrote: Hi manili
I’m not very much familiar with different types of licenses and their legal issues. So would some one do me a favor and answer my questions? Ok. I'll try my best :-)
1. Is NVDLA a libre and royalty-free IP core? It's not Libre for a simple reason: I'm not able to modify and share the core with others. Only the software around the core is covered by this license. It's like with the GPL, which doesn't cover the actual IP core they license their Verilog under at all (OpenCores.org issue) At no point I actually receive a full transistor layout of the IP core, only LEF files with the pin-out (at best!) It's more than a bit cheasy and quiet a bit of a diversion strategy to publish a free license when your core business is actually chip designs which are not covered at all under a copyright based licensing scheme... >_> nVidia just got evil++, some level-ups really aren't that good.
2. Is it possible to modify it and relicense the modifications? Software sure, but good luck getting the GDS2 files with the actual IP core in the first place in order to modify it. Or even more unlikely, the Cadence (def) files with the actual wiring information.
3. You know AFAIK the GPU architecture is somewhat similar to AI accelerator. So I’m thinking NVDLA is a good starting point but I don’t know about potential legal issues. So what do you think guys? Well. Even if they license the code around their core under a free-ish license I bet 6 king cans of Tsing Tao or Paulaner, that the actual VLSI layout information of the actual core is only available after signing 23ish interlinked NDAs which contain your eternal soul now belonging to nVidia as well as your first born and all your other belongings.
Cheers -lev_______________________________________________ Libre-silicon-devel mailing list Libre-silicon-devel@list.libresilicon.com <mailto:Libre-silicon-devel@list.libresilicon.com> http://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libre-silicon-devel <http://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libre-silicon-devel> _______________________________________________ Libre-silicon-devel mailing list Libre-silicon-devel@list.libresilicon.com http://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libre-silicon-devel
Hi David, Thanks for the reply. Ok let’s start step by step: 1. If I understood right, what you mean by “software” is/are A) whole software stack (i.e drivers, compilers and etc.) and B) front-end (i.e. the RTL, synthesizing scripts and etc.). So these things are all under the license. As a result is it possible to modify these things and relicense them? 2. So you are right, there is nothing about the back-end (i.e. transistors layout). So if your team at HK try to create a libre, royalty-free layout scheme for NVDLA from scratch it will result in a legal issue for you? 3. Sorry I’m a little confused, the issue is about what currently “IS" in the license file or about what currently "IS NOT” in the license file? Best regards, Manili
On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:14 PM, David Lanzendörfer <david.lanzendoerfer@o2s.ch> wrote:
Hi manili
I’m not very much familiar with different types of licenses and their legal issues. So would some one do me a favor and answer my questions? Ok. I'll try my best :-)
1. Is NVDLA a libre and royalty-free IP core? It's not Libre for a simple reason: I'm not able to modify and share the core with others. Only the software around the core is covered by this license. It's like with the GPL, which doesn't cover the actual IP core they license their Verilog under at all (OpenCores.org issue) At no point I actually receive a full transistor layout of the IP core, only LEF files with the pin-out (at best!) It's more than a bit cheasy and quiet a bit of a diversion strategy to publish a free license when your core business is actually chip designs which are not covered at all under a copyright based licensing scheme... >_> nVidia just got evil++, some level-ups really aren't that good.
2. Is it possible to modify it and relicense the modifications? Software sure, but good luck getting the GDS2 files with the actual IP core in the first place in order to modify it. Or even more unlikely, the Cadence (def) files with the actual wiring information.
3. You know AFAIK the GPU architecture is somewhat similar to AI accelerator. So I’m thinking NVDLA is a good starting point but I don’t know about potential legal issues. So what do you think guys? Well. Even if they license the code around their core under a free-ish license I bet 6 king cans of Tsing Tao or Paulaner, that the actual VLSI layout information of the actual core is only available after signing 23ish interlinked NDAs which contain your eternal soul now belonging to nVidia as well as your first born and all your other belongings.
Cheers -lev
Hi manili
Thanks for the reply. You'r welcome :-)
Ok let’s start step by step: 1. If I understood right, what you mean by “software” is/are A) whole software stack (i.e drivers, compilers and etc.) and B) front-end (i.e. the RTL, synthesizing scripts and etc.). So these things are all under the license. As a result is it possible to modify these things and relicense them? RTL isn't covered under the license. Can't be, because it's RTL, which is a technology specific implementation which can not be protected under a copyright anymore.
2. So you are right, there is nothing about the back-end (i.e. transistors layout). So if your team at HK try to create a libre, royalty-free layout scheme for NVDLA from scratch it will result in a legal issue for you? That's the whole key issue. We can't legally build their IP cores with the LibreSilicon process and sell it within our products and then provide the GDS2 files and ALF layout files on GitHub
3. Sorry I’m a little confused, the issue is about what currently “IS" in the license file or about what currently "IS NOT” in the license file? No reason to be confused. They could have take the MIT or Apache license (not the GPL because that would have tainted the issue with the unfree IP cores). Their IP cores are not Libre. In fact their silicon is unfree AF. Very simple. Their silicon is *not* Libre. The fact that they had to introduce a new license which doesn't collide with their unfree IP proofs it.
Cheers -lev
Thanks a lot David. That was very helpful. Best regards, Manili
On Jul 16, 2018, at 11:30 PM, David Lanzendörfer <david.lanzendoerfer@o2s.ch> wrote:
Hi manili
Thanks for the reply. You'r welcome :-)
Ok let’s start step by step: 1. If I understood right, what you mean by “software” is/are A) whole software stack (i.e drivers, compilers and etc.) and B) front-end (i.e. the RTL, synthesizing scripts and etc.). So these things are all under the license. As a result is it possible to modify these things and relicense them? RTL isn't covered under the license. Can't be, because it's RTL, which is a technology specific implementation which can not be protected under a copyright anymore.
2. So you are right, there is nothing about the back-end (i.e. transistors layout). So if your team at HK try to create a libre, royalty-free layout scheme for NVDLA from scratch it will result in a legal issue for you? That's the whole key issue. We can't legally build their IP cores with the LibreSilicon process and sell it within our products and then provide the GDS2 files and ALF layout files on GitHub
3. Sorry I’m a little confused, the issue is about what currently “IS" in the license file or about what currently "IS NOT” in the license file? No reason to be confused. They could have take the MIT or Apache license (not the GPL because that would have tainted the issue with the unfree IP cores). Their IP cores are not Libre. In fact their silicon is unfree AF. Very simple. Their silicon is *not* Libre. The fact that they had to introduce a new license which doesn't collide with their unfree IP proofs it.
Cheers -lev
David Lanzendörfer schreef op di 17-07-2018 om 03:00 [+0800]:
Ok let’s start step by step: 1. If I understood right, what you mean by “software” is/are A) whole software stack (i.e drivers, compilers and etc.) and B) front-end (i.e. the RTL, synthesizing scripts and etc.). So these things are all under the license. As a result is it possible to modify these things and relicense them?
RTL isn't covered under the license. Can't be, because it's RTL, which is a technology specific implementation which can not be protected under a copyright anymore.
I think this statement is not right. RTL code like VHDL and Verilog is technology independent and do fall under copyright law. AFAIK, it's the GDSII, masks and chips fall under another regime. I'm no expert but I do think this means that if you buy a chip, you may reverse engineer the chip and then make your own version without needing to obey the license of the RTL of the original chip. If you use the RTL of the original chip you need to obey it's license. greets, Staf.
Hi Hmm. Yeah, you're right. Only that you don't share the actual RTL perse but only use it for simulation and generating a netlist and from that a .def file. It's kind of a legal discussion[1] whether a DEF/Magic/GDS2 layout is actually covered by copyright or whether one has to register a Gebrauchsmuster for it already. Cheers David [1] https://www.commarts.com/columns/is-it-true-that-copyright-doesn-t-protect-g... On Wednesday, 18 July 2018 3:14:14 AM HKT Staf Verhaegen wrote:
I think this statement is not right. RTL code like VHDL and Verilog is technology independent and do fall under copyright law. AFAIK, it's the GDSII, masks and chips fall under another regime. I'm no expert but I do think this means that if you buy a chip, you may reverse engineer the chip and then make your own version without needing to obey the license of the RTL of the original chip. If you use the RTL of the original chip you need to obey it's license.
participants (4)
-
David Kochanov -
David Lanzendörfer -
Mohammad Amin Nili -
Staf Verhaegen